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Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody Brian:
Follow the logic of the anthropic principle to its bitter conclusion: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/4/27/03541/2520 Pr(Fine-Tuned Universe | Intelligent Design & Fine-Tuned Universe) = Pr(Fine-Tuned Universe | Chance & Fine-Tuned Universe) = 1
This is to say that since we are here we must live in a universe fine-tuned to our existence regardless of whether that universe was created by an intelligent designer or by random chance. Therefore, the fine-tuned universe argument does not, in the final analysis, promote either intelligent design or chance (Sober).
The Fine Structure Constant and Speed of Light are not so constant: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/16/4/9 |
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Mr. Nobody,
If I understand you right I think I could picture your argument another way. In a definition of the second law of thermal dynamics this picture was given. That if you add order to a cylinder of gas by partitioning the cylinder into two parts and pump all the gas to one side you have added order to the system. If you pull the divider out the second law states that the gas will flow back to its original state of disorder and fill the whole cylinder. But, there is that chance that the molecules of the gas will bounce off of each other in such a way that they may stay in the partinioned half when the partition is removed.
I think our universe with order could be represented by the partitioned half with all the gas in it, and there could be other universes out there without order we don't live in or observe because they are partitioned of in another dimension or something, like the empty half of the cylinder. Now if there is an ordered and disordered universe like this then there is an equal chance to live in ether one. But, since we need to live in order to observe order, we live in the one with that has the gas in it.
I find two problems with this argument though:
1. Someone still had to put in the partition and pump the gas over to one side, which takes intelligence.
2. If nobody pumped it over the molecules are staying over there by chance, and though that is possible, I think we could partition off a lot of of cylinders, and then pull out the partition and none would stay ordered, let alone divide themselves again and again and add order over time.
Even if I give you your equal chance argument, (and I will do that) that means we should be spending equal time trying to figure out how the universe happened by chance, and equal time figuring out the mechanisms some sort of intelligence is using to guide it. And, maybe what kind of intelligence it is. It appears to me right now in Science we are trying to figure how all the gas is staying on one side and then dividing itself again by chance, when we should be trying to figure how something or someone decided to divide the cylinder in the first place, and then kept doing it in such way to get us where we are today. Because if they both are possible but only one is right are we going to find the right answer studying only one possibility. You said we have a equal chance we are wrong.
I know the constants aren't really constants, but they're predictable for a reason.
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Dave,
If we are ever going to find a TOE, we are going to need a real picture, not abstract definitions or mathematical equations. Can you give me a picture of spin. I think every spherical volume has energy in it, matter is just a hyper dimension of the energy in the ether. Or in other words matter is ether divided up into order. In organic farming today the catch phrase is "energy is order". The more energy we can put in a plant the more tons of ordered energy I have to sell, and I have to make intelligent decisions, based on chemistry, physics and input allocation to get that order. I can picture that. I can picture a spherical volume and I can picture Planck's constant as a specific volume of energy, though some people wouldn't like me giving energy a volume so lets call it a packet. But, what the heck is the intrinsic value of spin measuring, and what does that measurement look like besides statistical grouping of data. Those groups should represent something real not abstract.
Brian