[Brian Jakub]

Dave,

I don't want to debate beliefs, I want to know. A belief that isn't based on facts that you can observe isn't worth believing. There has to be a theory, with a real picture we can see and measure, to explain where gravity and everything else we see originates. I can tell how much gravitational force there is between two masses, but why is it there at all. I refuse to believe it is all a figment of our collective imagination.

You stated:
Energy is a mathematical term representing the measurement of "Force".
Matter on the other hand is not a mathematical term; it is by definition a physical entity.
Too often the term "Mass" is interpreted as matter and thus producing many confusing false concepts.

Matter is a physical entity, which we can measure. We can measure its mass, which is how much force it takes to change its velocity in a specific frame of reference over a specific time.

To be a physical entity matter must be made of something. If it is just pieces of the aether spinning in a sphere, then how could we measure how much kinetic energy it is made up of. If it is all kinetic energy then all its mass should convert to energy 1/2(mvv). If all matter is made up of particles spinning or vibrating at the speed of light, then the energy should be 1/2(mcc). But, if matter is actually made up of units that are two pieces of aether, and we define one as real, and one with the opposite charge as virtual, we must count both as their ke is absorbed into the aether. So if we multiply 1/2(mcc) by 2 we get ke in a certian mass of matter is mcc as special relativity states.

But, what is the virtual particles of aether made of. Could they just be made up of four quarks, which are just four pieces of space of a specific volume, given a specific spin and rotational velocity in relation to all other pieces of space which, are also all the same size and are all spinning virtually the same speed if they are in a vacuum without any electromagnetic fields or gravity.

I guess in the end that would make matter just a bunch of pieces of dead space which, have specific rotational velocities, and certian amount of order to the way they are arranged to them. I know this sounds idealistic, but at least it's a real picture ideally that's what we're looking for. And where am I duped. I'm just calling it as I see it, and I see order. I don't think I'm imagining it, and I don't think what we are seeing in qm disagrees with anything I've said. If it does it doesn't necessarily throw the whole theory out, it just might need modifying. If we can come up with way to explain what we observe without giving the empty space in our universe and inside the atom a lot of order that would be fine, but I don't think it's possible. In the end it might require too much order to happen without some intelligence in the beginning or some place along the way. If intelligence is required in the beginning then I might have to take that on faith if that intelligence never decides to reveal itself to us in a way we can scientifically measure. If it happened completely by chance though, then there has to be a large amount of disorder somewhere to make up for all the order we observe in our universe so that the second law of thermal dynamics isn't broken. I will have no choice but to take it on faith that the disorder exists because, to live I am confined to this universe of order, and I can't see how that disorder is ever going to let me know it exists.

So if you find it easier to believe in the God of disorder, or the God of order, I don't care. (Capital "G" on both so as not to offend anyone, you can edit it yourself according to your own beliefs) If an underlying order is what we need to explain what we see, like David Bohm, Albert Einstien, and Nikola Tesla have alluded to, then let's put some energy into looking for it. Instead, we have spent the last thirty years coming up with a lot of very good abstract mathematics that try to connect groups of data, without crossing the holy threshold of disorder and pure randomness and it hasn't seemed to have gotten us anywhere.

Brian