| 1st degree Black Belt
Status: Offline Posts: 203
Thanks Given: 31
Thanked 25x in 24 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2005 Rep Power: 16 | Re: what is life???????? -
05-01-2008, 08:46 AM
Minaras, I am reformatting your quote in order to respond:
MINARAS: 1)lets come now to the position to answer if the spores that some microorganisms forms(e.g. cryptobiosis,anhydrobiosis etc) are living forms. If their metabolism is not zero, if it exists but it cant be detected because it is so weak, then they dont differ in anything from the other organisms.
JAK: agreed
MINARAS: If their metabolism is absolute zero, then the answer gets more complicated.
JAK: agreed
MINARAS: The fact is that it doesnt matter what it is, because the question is useless. JAK: disagree
MINARAS: Life as we see it is simply the result of the chemical reactions on earth. JAK: agreed - the set of living organisms is a subset of the larger set of all chemical reactions on Earth.
MINARAS: As we said ,we are part of the system and we dont realize it, but if we were alien forms of life for example, and we were watching the earth from outer space, then we would see only a very complicated network of reactions that are becoming more and more because of the energy of light. This system would have different structural forms, colours, etc. So, what happens with the spores is that because they face very unfriendly conditions ,the certain chemical reactions stop happening or they are lowering their rate. According to our definition, they are not life, JAK: If you are saying that spores with zero metabolism are not life, then you are approaching the classic argument about RNA which can survive in an inactive state in hostile environments (perhaps in outer space), yet become active again when entering a living cell. This argument "splits hairs" over whether or not a system has the potential to reanimate (come to life) or not.
MINARAS: but what is life? Life seems to be more an invention of us,or else a term that we use to describe anything that looks like us. JAK: All words are inventions by us. They are tools by which we convey knowledge. Nature does not provide hard distinctions. We create hard distinctions to simplify Nature and to simplify communication.
MINARAS: There is not such a thing as life, its an illusion. An organism is the reactions that we see, and we think they are something amazing because we see them separately from all the other reactions that are happening in the world. We judge them from their result, which is that they become like us. JAK: agreed. "Life" is a term invented by humans because it provides some utility for us. This utility comes into play in law and many sciences. Schrodinger's distinction is based upon his distinction between those systems which only fall into equillibrium states and those systems which attempt to move away from equillibrium. Stuart Kauffman calls systems which "ratchet away" from equillibrium, "Autonomous Agents." Though he does not give credit to Schrodinger, he is restating Schrodinger's idea.
MINARAS: We are a part of the reactions that are happening as well, and while we see organisms that look like us, we think they are independent creatures, but actually they cant be separated from the whole soup of reactions.
JAK: agreed.
MINARAS:The spores are becoming as they were before because their reactions start happening, and they start looking like us.
JAK: agreed.
There is not such a thing as homeostasis. JAK: disagree - please define your term, "homeostasis".
...
MINARAS: 2) Another implication of the theory is that because the sum of the chemical reactions is a chain, it means that the cause of a disease maybe come from the organ that has the symptoms, but maybe not. An initial problem causes its irregularity, but depends of the vulnerability of each organ to see in which organ the symptom will be seen, because all the reactions communicate with each other, and when a problem exists its like a volcano and we dont know where will it explode.
JAK: agreed.
MINARAS: For example a psychic disorder can cause a problem from the liver for example. JAK: I do not understand. The term psychic is usually ascribed to people with paranormal abilities. I am guessing you mean psychological. And I agree that psychological activities can cause physical harm. (Research by Allan Rechtschaffen has revealed the detrimental effects of prolonged wakefulness.) However, I do not understand what you mean by "cause a problem from the liver." Please clarify. I think this will boil down to the term "life" and its utility for you. It is a general use concept which has legal rammifications on the disposition of land and personal property. Depending upon the context of communication, the term may have greater or lesser usefulness. So, if your question is about whether or not "life" can be defined, then Schrodinger and Kauffman have done so. If you complain that the definition is not perfect (i.e. spores and RNA), then I again respond: Nature does not provide hard distinctions. We create hard distinctions to simplify Nature and to simplify communication. |