[Graybeard]

I don't know if I would go so far as to agree that Faith transcends Logic ..

But I do agree that Occam's Razor doesn't really settle things.

For readers of this thread, the following is just for Pat and we know its off topic

You have asked me about the Aboriginal Creation myth before, and I apologise for sort of side stepping it. The fact is, its extremely difficult to put into words. Its called the Dreaming, and it has never stopped, just entered a new phase now that us white fellas are here.

All people partake of the Dreaming, even you and me, and I suppose it best translates as 'to see and understand the way'

The Dreamtime, which is part of the Dreaming, is considered the Time-before-Time or the Creation-Time.

This is the time when ancestral beings moved across the land. I suppose I will confuse you as I find it confusing myself at times, so here is a quote

The expression 'Dreamtime' is most often used to refer to the 'time before time', or 'the time of the creation of all things', while 'Dreaming' is often used to refer to an individual's or group's set of beliefs or spirituality.

For instance, an Indigenous Australian might say that they have Kangaroo Dreaming, or Shark Dreaming, or Honey Ant Dreaming, or any combination of Dreamings pertinent to their 'country'. However, many Indigenous Australians also refer to the creation time as 'The Dreaming'.

What is certain is that 'Ancestor Spirits' came to Earth in human and other forms and the land, the plants and animals were given their form as we know them today.

These Spirits also established relationships between groups and individuals, (whether people or animals) and where they traveled across the land, or came to a halt, they created rivers, hills, etc., and there are often stories attached to these places.

Once their work was done, the Ancestor Spirits changed again; into animals or stars or hills or other objects. For Indigenous Australians, the past is still alive and vital today and will remain so into the future.

The Ancestor Spirits and their powers have not gone, they are present in the forms into which they changed at the end of the 'Dreamtime' or 'Dreaming', as the stories tell.

Where these spirits (they are often depicted as Anthromorphs) travelled are called Dreaming Paths. Mutawintji, where I recently visited, is an important place on one such path. Another is from south of Cobar to the Brewarrina Fish Traps. The Aboriginals follow these paths and perform acts and rituals, such as burning off the land, which play a vital role in the ecology of this continent.

In other words, their 'Faith' has a direct, unarguable, scientifically testable outcome, that sustains the plants and animals. One reason for this is that the flora and fauna have evolved to 'survive' or 'stay-in-tune-with' the Dreaming.

How each plant, animal, geographic feature, got its form is told in a Dreaming Story .... and there are thousands. For example, here is one that tells of the Dreaming Path from Cobar to Brewarrina which I have already mentioned and also in my 'early man' thread where there are photos from Mount Grenfell which are related to this story

Originally Posted by told by Aunty Beryl Carmichael

This is the creation story of Ngiyaampaa country, as well as the land belonging to Eaglehawk and Crow.

Now long, long time ago of course, in the beginning, when there was no people, no trees, no plants whatever on this land, "Guthi-guthi", the spirit of our ancestral being, he lived up in the sky.

So he came down and he wanted to create the special land for people and animals and birds to live in.

So Guthi-guthi came down and he went on creating the land for the people-after he'd set the borders in place and the sacred sights, the birthing places of all the Dreamings, where all our Dreamings were to come out of.

Guthi-guthi put one foot on Gunderbooka Mountain and another one at Mount Grenfell.

And he looked out over the land and he could see that the land was bare. There was no water in sight, there was nothing growing. So Guthi-guthi knew that trapped in a mountain-Mount Minara-the water serpent, Weowie, he was trapped in the mountain. So Guthi-guthi called out to him, "Weowie, Weowie", but because Weowie was trapped right in the middle of the mountain, he couldn't hear him.

Guthi-guthi went back up into the sky and he called out once more, "Weowie", but once again Weowie didn't respond. So Guthi-guthi came down with a roar like thunder and banged on the mountain and the mountain split open. Weowie the water serpent came out. And where the water serpent travelled he made waterholes and streams and depressions in the land.

So once all that was finished, of course, Weowie went back into the mountain to live and that's where Weowie lives now, in Mount Minara. But then after that, they wanted another lot of water to come down from the north, throughout our country. Old Pundu, the Cod, it was his duty to drag and create the river known as the Darling River today.

So Cod came out with Mudlark, his little mate, and they set off from the north and they created the big river. Flows right down, water flows right throughout our country, right into the sea now.

And of course, this country was also created, the first two tribes put in our country were Eaglehawk and Crow. And from these two tribes came many tribal people, many tribes, and we call them sub-groups today. So my people, the Ngiyaampaa people and the Barkandji further down are all sub-groups of Eaglehawk and Crow.

So what I'm telling you-the stories that were handed down to me all come from within this country.

This story is older than Genesis, and it is probably relatively unchanged due to its simplicity, and therefore it is easily transmitted orally. Here is a link to more. Click

enjoy Pat .... greg

PS: If you go to the 'Early Man' thread, first post, second last photo ... you will see part of the 'Split Open Mountain' where 'Guthi-Guthi' banged on it. LOL ... I know it sounds funny, but if you were to visit Mt Grenfell it certainly has the appearance of being smashed to bits. Truly. LOL

greg