pain intelligence

[www.yellowtab.cc]

i just suppose that an intelligent entity "thinking"&"working"&"residing"&"advancing"&"conce ntratiing"&"plus or whatever" on pain only is the most intelligent ... what AI can do?

how brainy or painy are humans? is there more in universe?

i would have respect HIGH of a screertwdriver - if targetted powered in time!


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[SteveA]

Pain is controlling. Control is something determined by the system that is doing that control.

Control is a closed system that cannot grow - it's power cord is unplugged. Highly controlled countries stagnate. A perfectly rigid crystal is lifeless.

Time cannot be contained in a box. Only pain, control and death fit into boxes and will always be left behind in time. The future escapes all these.

[labelwench]

Pain is controlling. Control is something determined by the system that is doing that control.

Control is a closed system that cannot grow - it's power cord is unplugged. Highly controlled countries stagnate. A perfectly rigid crystal is lifeless.

Time cannot be contained in a box. Only pain, control and death fit into boxes and will always be left behind in time. The future escapes all these.

The body has a mechanism for escaping pain.

It releases its' hold on consciousness.

Pain can indeed be limiting or controlling as you suggest.

Pain can also be a motivating factor for the individual or the collective.

Whether pain becomes a limitation or a motivation depends on the nature of the pain and the skills available in mitigating the pain, be it physical or psychological, personal or communal.

Growth may proceed from learning to move through and beyond the pain.

[SteveA]

The body has a mechanism for escaping pain.

It releases its' hold on consciousness.

Pain can indeed be limiting or controlling as you suggest.

Pain can also be a motivating factor for the individual or the collective.

Whether pain becomes a limitation or a motivation depends on the nature of the pain and the skills available in mitigating the pain, be it physical or psychological, personal or communal.

Growth may proceed from learning to move through and beyond the pain.

Yes, I personally think pain can ironically be desirable in some ways ... I don't believe it's ideal to simply ignore or block pain, but instead to learn why it exists and discover how to grow past it.

Given the option of an ecstatic rigomortis or a life to explore, I'd have to pass on the ecstasy (I guess I must enjoy something else even more).

The main choice appears to be either nothing at all, or life and its mixture of many things. There might have been a few times in life that "nothing" didn't seem a bad option, but ultimately no, it would be hard to give up the mixture and trying to make it better, learn past those and grow seems like the direction to go ... I guess I'm just a crazy stubborn fool like that. (Could be a Taurus thing? )

It's interesting to notice that power and control in society are motivated by fear and not enforcement. Enforcement is costly, produces nothing in itself and is ultimately self destructive. The only real power others have over oneself in the end is just what's given to them, or what authority one acts upon that they're believed to possess or represent. Armies starve if no one feeds them, or if they've plundered everything within reach and it takes a lot more peace than conflict to survive (just the way nature works ... probably intentional).

[www.yellowtab.cc]

normal pain does stop growing/building
abnormal pain does not stop building/growing
does abnormal pain exist in universe? now? for how long? all starting with big headache ...

[labelwench]

normal pain does stop growing/building
abnormal pain does not stop building/growing
does abnormal pain exist in universe? now? for how long? all starting with big headache ...

My thoughts are that 'pain' is not the 'normal' state for any being.

Physical 'Pain' is a symptom that warns us to change something, or be aware of a change pending.

'Pain' can be caused by external mechanisms, i.e. touching a hot stove results in a burn, falling on ice may result in a broken bone, a vehicle accident at speed may result in multiple injuries or even death.

'Pain' can result from internal mechanisms, as in our body's reaction to a food or chemical ingested. The headache resulting from excessive alcohol consumption, allergic reaction to a food additive.

Many persons are sensitive to sudden changes in atmospheric pressure, and this provides them with a warning that weather change is pending, so that they may take shelter and make other preparations.

Abnormal pain, to my way of thinking, would be pain that has a recognizable cause, yet the organism experiencing the pain does not act to change the cause and remove the pain.

To select for pain as the preferred condition is abnormal, yet there is evidence that our species does just that.

We knowingly practice behaviors that cause ourselves pain, yet we do not often change these behaviors. I suggest smoking and obesity as two examples of this self-destructive conduct.

[www.yellowtab.cc]

i mean more of pain as what is visible here on this planet in existence = exponential pain this also in time

[labelwench]

i mean more of pain as what is visible here on this planet in existence = exponential pain this also in time

Are you speaking of the planet as an entity capable of experiencing and responding to 'pain'?

In my ponderings, I can logically hypothesize that disruptions to the balance of nature impose pain to all species immediately affected and that the range of effect is far greater than homo sapiens is inclined to consider. Perhaps more than any other species, we have the ability to initiate incremental changes that have the capacity for exponential pain.

Would you expand in more detail the idea you wish to explore?

[SteveA]

i mean more of pain as what is visible here on this planet in existence = exponential pain this also in time

Does that concept itself cause pain or is it a source of fear? Is there value in either?

Consider this - if you desire to have freedom, but also desire specific circumstances to be present, then a potential conflict can arise in that an action granted by freedom could work to oppose circumstances that someone desires. In that case, what's more important - the freedom to be destructive of those or the ability to maintain those things of value?

I believe maintaining those valueable aspects is preferred and that freedom be constrained in that respect. Freedom should be a source of exploration and growth and not a freedom to oppose itself and destroy that.

If you look at the circumstances that cause pain and fear in life they primarily all arise from states and circumstances that are constricting, limiting, or have no long term possibility for growth. There was a story I'd read of a child that felt no pain and the parents had to continually try to protect her from damaging herself. Here's a similar story http://articles.cnn.com/2006-01-27/h...m?_s=PM:HEALTH

Of course, these are referring to the "normal" pains and limits in life. If you want to be able to stand on solid ground, then the "freedom" to fall through it at the same time needs to be sacrificed.

Fear is similar, though a mental pain that is learned. Fear can be useful to avoid physical pains. If you've been burned by fire a few times but withdrawn a hand quickly with only a small blister, then there's little damage. Fear of repeating the incident can even stop the blisters ... no need to continually react in an after-the-fact manner to physical harm or pain.

On the other hand, there seems to be little use of a fear of getting burned if you've already avoided the circumstances that caused the pain. So, for example, if you already know that a fire can damage the body and have taken precautions to avoid any significant damage when working with fire, then there would appear no use for maintaining a fear of getting burned in that specific circumstance.

It seems to me that there's no use for pain or fear if one is able to take care of oneself without a need for either and it's interesting that the body and mind appear to have some aspects of this "logic" already present. For example, hunger pains might be useful as a reminder to fill the "fuel tank" on occassion, but let's say that someone is either intentionally dieting or trying to find food, the hunger pains actually subside when attention is placed elsewhere. In a similar manner, muscles or activiting that cause specific forms of stress can be accomodated over time and less notice of those pains, or an adaptation to those can often be found, so it appears there are already aspects in which the body and mind can come to disregard or dimish pains and fears that serve little of any purpose.

In that article above, if the boy knew how to live and avoid harming his abilities, then there really wouldn't appear a need for any pain or fear at all ... what purpose would they serve?

In regard to pains and fears that could be considered abnormal, at least with respect to mental pain/fear, one source that appears unnecessary and potentially abnormal is in regard to imagined fears. Is someone free to imagine fearful, painful circumstances? It appears so, but is there a use or value to that?

In terms of imagining fearful or painful circumstances, what elements of these could have any value? If someone is attempting to foresee some undesirable consequence, then I assume there might be considered to be a potential value to that, but consider that if one is going to take some action or is in the process of taking some action and pain, fear, regret etc. would have no influence upon this, then there's no use for any of those.

As a sidenote of something interesting to consider, if there was no pain or fear at all, would life on Earth appear likely survive? If not, could there be something alterable that might improve that possibility? Assuming there could be life without any pain or fear, would it be a desirable state? (No, I don't recommend getting rid of either, but it's interesting to consider to what extent there exist uses for these or in what respects there is no value in either. In some ways, the only "level" of pain or fear that has a use would appear to be just that which is able to alter whatever harmful circumstance either was attempting to avoid - more than that would appear to be destructive and have no purpose)

[Mr. Ignorant]

I've been thinking about AI, pain and consciousness too, but I didn't focus on the benefits. I focused on the downsides instead.

If we're able to create a conscious machine, can we program it to experience horrible pain all the time? This is a scary thought. I believe the universe is designed (perhaps by an intelligence or some underlying logical necessity) in such a way that this is impossible.