[Robert]

The next chat session is scheduled for this coming Saturday, February 18th, at 3:00pm Central Standard Time (CST) or GMT-6.

The topic is ...

The Out-of-Body Experience

This is a fascinating topic. To be able to project ones consciousness out of the confines of the physical body to explore other realities, other dimensions, to spy on your neighbor's wife. If only it were true. Or is it?

The relevance to the theory of everything is that, if this phenomenon is true, it is currently not understood by modern science, so any Theory of Everything must be able to describe in detail this phenomenon. The OBE, or Astral Projection, is the ability to project one's astral body beyond the physical body. Many have claimed to have done this feat. It can be done through meditation techniques, is often accomplished while sleeping, although not remembered, and has been reported in near death experiences.

Robert Monroe, founder of the Monroe Institute, was one of the first to report this phenomena in his classic book, Journeys Out of the Body. A fascinating read.

Also reporting on this is a British man named Cyril Hoskins who claims his body was taken over by the spirit of a Tibetan lama named Lobsang Rampa. He wrote a series of books with an emphasis on Astral Projection and other paranormal phenomenon. Although possibly a fraud, it made for some fascinating reading while in my teen years.

Another leader in the field is Ingo Swann, a remote viewer at the Stanford Research Institute, and has written books on the subject. He is also reported to have worked with the CIA in intelligence gathering operations.

Many other references can be found at Wikipedia, or just google "Astral Projection" or "OBE", and you're sure to get many hits.

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On with the chatter!

[Guille]

The main problem with OBE is that it leads to the philosophy of science. Some philosophies of science state that we cannot accept a proposal/theory if it cannot be tested at all, or if it's not exmpalined how to be done (and achieved). The people you mention, have they explained ever how do get doing this 'abstral projection' and people managed to do it from their teaching? If not, then it doesn't go with the philosohpy of science of testability.

[mkirkpatrick]

Great topic,I shall be there,have had many experiances myself,and of course
the USA and the USSR both had Remote viewing programs running for years
and spent millions of dollars in that program,many bookshave been written about
the subject.Ingo Swann was oneof the leading remote viewers and was working
i believe for the C.I.A.

kindest regards michael.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by <<>> The main problem with OBE is that it leads to the philosophy of science. Some philosophies of science state that we cannot accept a proposal/theory if it cannot be tested at all, or if it's not exmpalined how to be done (and achieved). The people you mention, have they explained ever how do get doing this 'abstral projection' and people managed to do it from their teaching? If not, then it doesn't go with the philosohpy of science of testability.

Many people have given detailed instructions on how this can be done, and others have claimed to have followed the advice and accomplished an OBE. I believe the experience of an OBE is real in the sense that the person having the OBE truly believes that an Out-of-Body experience is taking place. I believe this to be an experience that is far more than and fundamentally different from a dream.

My main question is whether the OBE experience is what it appears to be--the conscousness leaving the physical body to explore this or other realities--or, counter to the obvious sensation of being out of one's body, it takes place completely within the brain. I believe there may be brain structures that control our body perspective. I'll try and look this information up as it could provide some useful insight.

[David Maes]

You know sometimes when someone had an accident, for example a person lost an arm... then sometimes the person thinks he still feels his arm moving (or when he sleeps next to someone he thinks the arm of the person next to him is his...)

I heard some stories about people in a war or even just when they fainted they saw there own body...

I don't know... I guess it could be true that they experienced it...

But I'm just doubting about the fact that it would be some kind of spirit which is flying above the body...

Could it be that there is connection between this experience (out-of-body) and my story of the person who lost his arm??

Maybe it could be the same thing... when somebody has brain-damage or something like that, that the person experiences to perceive his own body; just like a person can feel his arm moving when its already away...??

Maybe some kind of part in the brain (which makes the differences between you and your environnement) which is disturbed?

Maybe the sensation of perceiving your own body (like in a mirror) is when the body itself sends information to the brain without information of the persons environnement actually gets in in the brain(like with the lost arm...)??

Can we build a computer which simulates working of the brain??

What about the difference between conscious and unconscious information?

For example when we read a book; in just a few seconds we already seem to know a bit whats noted in the paper... ((also heard about some course you could attend, to read books very fast)) Are we reading the paper?? Or are we just reading our own unconsciousness??

How does the unconsciousness leads to our conscious experienced world?
Could there be a connection with the quantumworld?

Quantumworld seems to be discreet (I mean not continuous)... but or waves discreet??

Also black holes seem to let go some information... What does it mean??

Could there be a connection with 'open' or 'closed'? (For example to compare with entropy in a closed (thermodynamic) system??

(a bit of an interested layman)

Greetings,
David

[David Maes]

We seem to be 'replication'-machines. We each time copy ourselves (our DNA).
Sometimes it makes me thinking we use oxygen, food and drink to kind of "chlone" ourselves. It's like we're copying ourselves out of chaos to remain our complex structure. You'ld think we are just copies.
It's just like a virus makes copies of itself also but just in an other way.

You'ld think that living as long as possible is making copies, replication.

The fact is each time we make a copy; it's just like making a copy of the copy you had before; it's becoming blurry.

But what about a tree? I guess it's making copies also; but these doesn't seem to become blurry... The difference between us and the tree maybe could be a difference in metabolism...

We also seem to change as our environnement changes.

Even when we are kind of "chloning" or copying ourselves again and again; even when we change completely, we still experience ourselves as the same person. I guess this might be because of memory. This I think would mean that not the information in the brain is copied, but just the DNA and the neurons. But this copying of DNA also automatically results in copying structures of neurons in the brain. Replication I think is probably inside the genes, which was an advantage in evolution.

When we would chlone ourselves (then I mean like Dolly); you would have a 'strange' result. You would actually talk to 'your own', or more specifically a copy of your own. But I guess you might still experience you being only you; and your chlone I guess might experience him (or her) only him.

This might be because of a difference in the information which is stored in the brain.

So I think to make survive your own consciousness, you would actually have to upload the memorised info of your own into the brain of your copy.

But there could be some ethical burden... Maybe your copy would already have a consciousness; then when you are the copy, it could be that you kind of experience some 'spirit' is taking over your body... But I guess this wouldn't happen, the copy would probably just change in an instant because it receives lots of new info and connections; but would the old connections of the chlone be gone? If not then you would just get another person and not a copy of the original... I guess to make on surviving your consciousness you should need a 100% exact copy of the original (the copy might need to evolve out of the old one in a causal way.).
So finally if you would upload info from the original to the copy, and the copy already had a consciousness, the only way to make survive the consciousness of the original maybe would (in case of chloning like with Dolly) be to kill (delete) the consciousness of the copy. If there wouldn't be a consciousness in the copy before uploading the information from the original, then in case of uploading, you just might not give the consciousness of the copy the chance to exist (I mean only the original would have the chance).


But what would happen if you would just copy (while alive) what's inside the brain of the original into the copy and also remain the connections in the neurons in the original? Would there be one consciousness? Would there be two consciousness? Or would there be some kind of 'splitten personality' of one consciousness? Would they be kind of 'connected' to eachother?
I guess they would already 'separate' right after the moment of copying because they are not at the same place and the same time simultaneously.
(changing environnement).


So I guess to make on surviving the consciousness you should have a chlone or some kind of asynchronic parallel nanocomputersystem which doesn't have a consciousness yet, in which you upload the connections from the brain without this chlone or computer having to be exposed to a new environnement.

But I guess chloning humans is a bit of a problem because chlones seem to die faster than the original; so copying would have to take place more frequently.

Maybe you could 'connect' a chlone with the original by some kind of implanted chip.

Or maybe we could connect a part of the brain made from a laboratory with the original and with a computer, and do some experiments with quantumcomputers.

Sorry, like science-fiction to much.
(You know what's wrong and right).

[TinyTree]

Is it permissible to attend with an out of body projection?

How could you tell someone one attending if they were using an astral projection? Perhaps all those who wish to participate in the astral projection version of the meeting could meet in a specific space in the other dimension, although I am not sure how you would specify directions to meet there.

Can anyone please give directions to the meeting place in astral space?

[David Maes]

Hi Tiny Tree.

First of all I want to congratulate you with your avatar. It seems to look a lot like me.

[David Maes]

Imagen that what I say about us copying ourselves would be true.

But what would it mean?

I mean, if you die, then obviously you're dead...

But it's 'you' who's dead; if you're just a copy, then would you have already existed in the first place? How could one die if he already wouldn't have existed?? Existence, is it real (I mean like we experience it...)??

We certainly all experience our existence, but maybe it could also be partially illusory (like many other illusions)...

I mean, is 'you' really 'you'? Or is it just a feeling, an experience? Maybe 'you' could just be a sensation created in an evolutionary way; it will vanish probably but... Right now, many of these sensations are not existing anymore...; the only thing we're sure of is that other kind of sensations are existing right now...

Maybe when you're dead; something else starts to exist...; if this starts to exist, then obviously it won't be 'you'. But maybe... What if 'you' would have become you, then how could you ever know you were 'you' before, because what was 'you' is not a part of your memory or your brain.

Anything might be possible...

Maybe you would just not be 'you' anymore...

But being you would never give you the possibility to know you were 'you' before.

The only thing we are sure of now is that we are. Maybe that could be the real meaning of it...

[G_burnett]

Originally Posted by TinyTree Is it permissible to attend with an out of body projection? How could you tell someone one attending if they were using an astral projection? Perhaps all those who wish to participate in the astral projection version of the meeting could meet in a specific space in the other dimension, although I am not sure how you would specify directions to meet there. Can anyone please give directions to the meeting place in astral space?

Hi there ......

is so hard to relate this as my appetite is palavering over that fine example of human food in the way of an avitar... yummy .... i would gladly give direction you seek but it is not where you may think as i believe it is in the retina of your eyes being effected and the image you see will be but the implantation identity that i am and if you wish i can tap you on your shoulder when i am there to let you know it... unfortunately in the past the human persona tends to react with extreme fear and surprise of my hello breaking the relaxed awareness state of contact ... at the hour of ten California time tonight i will attempt to show you this meeting place if you are awake, light a candle, put on some music to relax and have your computer on and i will say hi ... look for a image being sent no matter how lets say different and i will discribe to you the pic i was sending to you?

I will send for verification purposes a private note to lets say Michael describing the photo image to be sent and after you post the image you see we will can see what might match? the object will have one color and movement in a specific way... see you later ...Peace Graham