2008-05-03: Thought Experiments

[Robert]

Continuing with our chat every other Saturday schedule, our next topic-driven chat session will be held this coming Saturday, May 3rd, at 8pm GMT. Since our last topic related to physics, I thought we would venture into philosophy this time. The topic is...

Thought Experiments

From Wikipedia, a thought experiment is the use of a hypothetical scenario or imaginary situation to help us understand the way things actually are. So, this is an experiment conducted in thought and reasoning only and often takes the view of an extreme case so the situation and implications are more clear.

Several examples can be found in the Wikipedia definition. One example I'll summarize is the "brain in a vat". This particular thought experiment involves removing a person's brain from the body, suspend it in a vat of life-sustaining liquid, and connect its neurons by wires to a supercomputer which would provide it with electrical impulses identical to those the brain normally receives. The computer could then simulate a virtual environment so that the person with the "disembodied" brain would continue to have a perfectly normal conscious experience without it being related to objects or events in the real world. I wonder, how can we know what our situation really is?

That's just one example we can discuss but there are many others. We can cover one and see where that leads or we might hit on several. I'll give another example later, but if you think of any, post it here for an early start. The thought experiments should relate to philosophical questions.

References
The ToeQuest Thought Experiment Forum.
Brain in a vat definition in Wikipedia.
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy definition.

When is the chat in my local time?
I have a countdown timer on the home page, but you can also go to the timezone converter website to convert the 8pm GMT time to your local time. At the website select the "Use The Following Date/Time" option and enter the day and time of the chat (May 3rd, 8pm) and select GMT in the "From Time Zone" section and your location in the "To Time Zone" section, then click convert. This will give you the time of the chat meeting in own local time.

Texas, U.S. - 3pm

California, U.S. - 1pm

New York, U.S. - 4pm

Britain, London - 9pm

Madrid, Spain - 10pm

Melbourne, Australia - Sunday, 6am

Paris, France - 10pm

India, Calcutta - Sunday, 1:30am

Sweden - 10pm

New Zealand - Sunday, 8am

Let's use this thread for the pre-chat discussion and please remember to vote in this thread's poll so we can all know who's attending. However, last minute drop-ins are also welcome.

[dleviwing]

Sorry, can’t make it; the family has other plans for my birthday.

Thought experiments do not produce any real data and thus they have no value; I prefer the real deal.

[dipayankar]

Looks interesting, though I dont think I understood the concept very much.

[GIRDHARILAL]

Sorry, can’t make it; the family has other plans for my birthday.

Thought experiments do not produce any real data and thus they have no value; I prefer the real deal.

Genrating empathy are first thought experiments,0ne thirty am India will gererate any ampathy,I shall keep traking

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks Robert will be there God willing-btw what about Turkish Time?




warm regards michael.

[Robert]

If your computer time is correct for your location then the countdown timer on the ToeQuest homepage will be correct. That might be the better time to go by if you're unsure of your timezone conversion.

I must disagree with Dave regarding thought experiments. They may not produce any real data but I believe their value lies in their ability to clarify existing data. For example, imagine a computer that can flawlessly respond to questions in Chinese with answers, also in Chinese. This computer easily passes the Turing test. One might think that the computer understands the Chinese language. But if you were aware of the Chinese Room thought experiment you might be convinced to think otherwise.

Unfortunately I am trapped in my office of my day job and nobody will let me out. I can occasionally get access to the Internet to send out a message or two without my keepers knowing. I'll try to pop in to the chat off and on but will be unable to attend full-time. However, once I escape I'll post a transcript of the chat for all to see.

Oh, Happy Birthday Dave!

--Robert

[basil]

To Girdharilal,

Any attempt at a TOE must include thought... unless you regard your thoughts as unreal & insignificant. How can anyone even contemplate a TOE without thought?

Thanks

Basil

[basil]

The Chinese room experiment demonstrates perfectly the thought procedure? Genes possess instinctive memories which are intrinsically necessary & preserved for survival. Genes also possess memories on another (magnetic)level which can be adapted & modified according to physical & environmental limitations... has anyone heard of the locust which only develops fully functional wings (in the egg) when the locust population is high & therefore, there is a high demand for food? Scientists thought that these locusts were a different species for a long time! Genes are then passed on through birth whereby the layered memories are dominated (epigenomes) by current situations... physical & environmental possibilities... with a lingering memory from previous genetic experiences. Anyone who believes in evolution must accept that thought & memory play a part?

[basil]

Well bugger me... I've joined in for the first tme & realised that any possible interested parties are offline!? Do I smell or sumat?... Is it me or the topic? I was hoping for a great Saturday night debate! Thought is what makes us who we are? Every species 'thinks' to a certain degree & anthropologists argue that language differentiates humans from animals?... But I don't believe that there is a definitive point?... Species evolve according to their physical & environmental possibilities? Genes & memories contain & maitain all the 'good stuff' & reject or appoint all the crap... so we are on a gradual journey of improvement & enlightenment. Why is it that the scientists don't see that?

[Graybeard]

Well bugger me... I've joined in for the first tme & realised that any possible interested parties are offline!? Do I smell or sumat?... Is it me or the topic? I was hoping for a great Saturday night debate! Thought is what makes us who we are? Every species 'thinks' to a certain degree & anthropologists argue that language differentiates humans from animals?... But I don't believe that there is a definitive point?... Species evolve according to their physical & environmental possibilities? Genes & memories contain & maitain all the 'good stuff' & reject or appoint all the crap... so we are on a gradual journey of improvement & enlightenment. Why is it that the scientists don't see that?

I'm not a Scientist ... but Scientists do see that. Good Post.

(check my 'Early Man' thread ... which follows your line of reasoning)

cool bananas ... greg