Consciousness Explained

[austintorn@aol.com]

"Row, row your boat merrily up the stream,
Life is but a dream."

Why doesn't that Guy ever wake up?

He's sleeping his life away!

[nameless]

Timeless, see you around, as all you said was "refuted" but supplied no proofs.

Because it is old stuff, sorry. Twice I've mentioned the writings of Bishop George Berkeley regarding 'materialism. Have you investigated his work, yet? You can find a bit here. I don't feel that i need 'proofs' for something so old. See what Berkeley says. I don't see everything his way, but he logically shows you how you can iknow nothing that is no existing, at perception, in the mind. Even quantum tells you that as you investigat 'so called matter' that, ultimately, it's no more than, never more than, 'information waves'; nothing that you can hold in (the 'information waves' that are) your hand!

If all is a dream, then Copenhagen would just be part of the dream and so couldn't be relied upon either.

It doesnt sound that you are familiar with it, are attempting to generically dismiss it, and fail. Various diverse avenues of exploration lead to the same intersection. QM is but one, finally. Due to the supporting experience/evidence from other 'avenues'/disciplines, so lends credence to the QM interpretation.

One cannot claim a dream and then use stuff from the dream.

Thats exactly what 'classical' physics/science has been doing, round and round and round... Finally we have the critical update offered by the new data and theories of QM.

Besides, there are other interpretations of the quantum realm.

Yes there are, but they do not intersect with the findings of the other avenues of inquiry. They stane out in space alone, desperate for support, failing without all sorts of pseudo-intellectual gymnastics, and still end in paradox (evidence of failure).

Anyway, if it can make particles real, then there are real particles about.

"'Reality' must rigidly adhere to that which is in an unchanging state of omniversal permanence." (Perfect symmetry) -Vedas
We don't make particles, or anything else, 'real'; we perceive and imagine 'real' as it is 'real' to the perceiver. The 'reality' that we perceive is a very small subset of existence, in any moment. The complete universe is unimaginable, and lasts one moment, timeless. Yes, this all seems real, that is what 'naive realism' is all about, thinking that the senses provide an accurate picture of existence; they don't.

I got some of the stuff posted from Stuart Hameroff and it is as new as science can get, having just come out this month. You probably have not read it yet.

I've read some of his work, but i certainly don't expect universal agreement. Science grows death by death, not educating scientists. I agree with some of his thoughts, disagree with others. Has he found, yet, that all moments are synchronous, or is he still 'stuck' in (linear) time? I never mind reading his thoughts, however I might disagree. Links?
But one person's opinion is just that, without mucho supportive evidence and logic and experience. Is he still 'stuck' in linearity/time?
I'm sure that you can link to various (failed) 'materialists', but, you can also link to 'flat earthers' as well; the critical thought of science and philosophy vs emotional 'beliefs'... inversely proportional, the greater the 'belief' the lesser the ability for 'critical thought'.

"Row, row your boat merrily up the stream,
Life is but a dream."

Why doesn't that Guy ever wake up?

He's sleeping his life away!

He is us, not knowing that we are dreaming.
"As the sun obscures the stars, so does 'wakefulness' obscure the fact that we are still asleep."
'Enlightenment' is beginning to become lucid within the dream. We never wake from it. It is all that there is to perceive, all existence.

[ggullet]

Two distinctions are central to isolating the sort of consciousness the theory aims to explain. First, we can make distinctions among creature consciousness, state consciousness, and introspective consciousness. Creature consciousness is a property possessed by creatures that are awake and sentient. Since wakefulness and sentience are fairly straightforward biological features, there seems to be no special problem to be solved regarding creature consciousness. State consciousness is a property of mental states that marks the difference between unconscious and conscious states. When a state is conscious, there is something it is like to be in that state. Introspective consciousness involves attending to one’s own mental states. According to higher-order theory, the mystery of consciousness lies in the nature of conscious states, and the mystery can be explained in terms of higher-order representation. A mental state is conscious – that is, there is something it is like to be in a mental state – when I have a higher-order representation about it.

An intuitive way to talk about consciousness is to say that a mental state is conscious when we are conscious of it. But this intuitive formulation utilizes two different uses of the word "conscious." The first use is called intransitive, because this form of consciousness has no object. State consciousness is an intransitive form of consciousness. The second use is called transitive, because this form of consciousness takes an object; transitive consciousness is consciousness of something. Introspective consciousness is a transitive form of consciousness, because it takes mental states as objects. With this distinction in hand we can restate the higher-order explanation in this way: intransitive state consciousness is explained in terms of transitive consciousness of mental states.

from the iep

[Mikal]

'Enlightenment' is beginning to become lucid within the dream. We never wake from it. It is all that there is to perceive, all existence...nameless...

What a strange term to use...we never wake from it...what the dream??? If that was the case why would nature design things so that there is waking moments but also a need for night, sleep and dreaming....


Mikal

[nameless]

'Enlightenment' is beginning to become lucid within the dream. We never wake from it. It is all that there is to perceive, all existence...nameless...

What a strange term to use...we never wake from it...what the dream???

Yup. The 'dream' of existence.

If that was the case why would nature design things so that there is waking moments but also a need for night, sleep and dreaming....

We dream that we sleep and dream and we dream that we waken to the day to again sleep to dream that we dream...
Just different chapters in the same book; different 'scenes' in the same dream. Do you really think that your 'waking reality' is of different stuff than your 'sleeping reality'? A different existence? A different universe?
Everything exists. Nothing exists 'more' than anything else.
Some can become 'lucid' during one's sleeping dream; fewer still those who become lucid in our 'waking dream'. There is no 'tree falling', there are; thoughts, concepts, mental holographic constructs and images, percepts, memories... of a 'tree' 'falling'.
There is not even a material us, there are; thoughts, concepts, mental holographic constructs and images, percepts, memories... of 'our bodies' (who's?), egoic images of a 'self', autonomous and free, with which we identify...
Ever see the old Mr Magoo cartoons? He stumbled through life with his eyes closed, blind, going through his dream life, but, every once in awhile he'd blink, see just a bit, just enough to make a 'sea change', a 'course correction and return, once again, into his dream!
Lucky are those who 'blink' even once!

[nameless]

Beyond the wild guess of “all is a dream” then there would have to be more guesses

"Wild guess"? Not that I don't appreciate your simplistic attempt to dismiss what I offer, even though i said that I have good science in support, rather than question me further and attempt to understand (understanding a Perspective does not necessarily require the adoption of said Perspective), you'd rather dismiss.
'Beliefs' are like that.
Q.) What are 'information waves'?
A.) They are what you find upon studying any of your 'material things' deeply enough. Mindstuff.

By the by, ridiculing a concept is the first symptom of a threatened 'belief', and certainly refutes nothing. Then comes various application of cognitive fallacies, attack and finally retreat. All the time defending, defending, rather than 'examining' and 'learning' and 'understanding'...
'Beliefs' live in deadened areas of the brain where cognition is weakest or nonexistent.

Okey dokey, I think that I said what i can. I don't expect a 'believer' in materialism to even be able to attempt to understand what I might offer, so if no questions, feel free to arbitrarily dismiss this Perspective and return to your regularly scheduled program.
G'night
nameless out

[melanie]

Austin:


While consciousness, the mind, and the subconscious are all of the brain (where else), I believe some very much wish to find a basis and separate some of them to be as the invisible undetectable “soul”.

Consciousness, the mind, the subconscious are all the brain.
the ''Soul'' is in fact the senses sensed.

From an Individual perspective.. this is apparently so.

But, this is still only an idea that arises in austin's conscious brain.

Even the appearance of austin here on the world stage is only an idea/concept you give to yourself.

You also give to yourself the idea that you are this separate person named austin with his own perspective who perceives from the unique perspective of austin.

But just who is Austin Torney?

Isn't he just an idea made up in the conscious brain.
And now austin identifies with that as being a real individual living self.
In reality....you or your mother have invented you, labeled you, and named you so as to suit them-self and to enable the continuity of life.
And yet so it seems this is how the oneself being operates here on earth in all the manifest forms of it's oneself being.

Within the bigger picture, austin is not his brain, he is not a separate individual separate entity.
You are not your body or brain, you are not your emotions.
These are only ever ideas and thoughts that ''arise'' in your consciousness and your perception of yourself.
But the very idea.. that all of these thoughts/ideas are 'arising' to and as a separate self entity.. is the illusion many of us fail to grasp.
Emotions, feelings, senses, do not belong to a separate entity...they arise in every-body.

They arise through all entities AS that entity and THROUGH that enity....but they are not that assumed separate enity.
If they were then the entity would be able to control the senses,feelings, emotions.
And yet you have no power over that what-so-ever.

Oh yes, you are real, but you are not who 'you think' you are.
And yes of course a truck will hurt you if you get in it's way.
That's the whole point of the oneself being manifesting itself into being.
It is appearing as itself through and as the many of it's own dream of being.. One so that it can be ''the experiencing'' of it's wild and wonderful ideas/dreams.

You are an appearance of the 'Oneself Being' within Cosmic Consciousness...Being itself through you and as you.

The idea that 'you' are a real separate 'you' is an illusional trick.
The oneself manifests as the many.
It is the oneself being playing a trick on itself.
You may reject that austin, it is not easy to digest.
And so i have no argument anymore here with anyone,
mainly because it is futile and energy draining to even go there anymore.

As far as i am concerned i have found the truth of our reality.
And all i want to do is share it with others here at the forum.
Some people already here on this forum .. already know and experience this truth.

But, You don't have to believe one word of it, i am merely putting this view across so others are able to see things from this perspective.
It is one that i share with many others in the world today.
I'm not saying it's the absolute true though...It is just something i personally believe to be the absolute truth.


So continuing on then.....

If austin torney was a real separate person.
Then where were you this austin person before you appeared on earth as austin.. here live in linear real time?
Where were you before?

Where was austin 1 billion years ago?
Where will austin be for the next 1 billion years when his body returns to the earth as dust?

Some-thing that is real, wouldn't that be like some-thing that last forever?
That would be my definition of real.

No, instead you are just another appearance of the eternal oneself being ..showing up as a temporal appearance as austin.
All You are in-fact, in reality is just a bunch of sensations.. pretending to be a separate some-one when in reality you are really a no-one....and a no-body.

The thing is that most people find that offensive, but it's not.
When you really understand the profoundness of this truth.
It is a relief to some and a shocking realization to another.

All you are is a name, a label, an idea, a concept.
You have no independant reality what-so-ever.
You are the pretender of the One eternal oneself being masquerading around as you in a separate body.

A very simple and radical truth.

mel.

[Mikal]

Yup. The 'dream' of existence.


We dream that we sleep and dream and we dream that we waken to the day to again sleep to dream that we dream...
Just different chapters in the same book; different 'scenes' in the same dream. Do you really think that your 'waking reality' is of different stuff than your 'sleeping reality'? A different existence? A different universe?
Everything exists. Nothing exists 'more' than anything else.
Some can become 'lucid' during one's sleeping dream; fewer still those who become lucid in our 'waking dream'. There is no 'tree falling', there are; thoughts, concepts, mental holographic constructs and images, percepts, memories... of a 'tree' 'falling'.
There is not even a material us, there are; thoughts, concepts, mental holographic constructs and images, percepts, memories... of 'our bodies' (who's?), egoic images of a 'self', autonomous and free, with which we identify...
Ever see the old Mr Magoo cartoons? He stumbled through life with his eyes closed, blind, going through his dream life, but, every once in awhile he'd blink, see just a bit, just enough to make a 'sea change', a 'course correction and return, once again, into his dream!
Lucky are those who 'blink' even once!

Hi Nameless....the moment we take thoughts and fix them into an unmoveable structure, it is the creation of an ideology. Nothing more starkly stops human progress than ideology.



here is a quote for you....

"To live in the comfort of ideology is to live in delusion. The sign of a healthy civilization is the existence of a relatively clear language in which everyone can participate in their own way. The sign of a sick civilization is the growth of an obscure, closed language that seeks to prevent communication."

John Ralston Saul....

No intention to offend you but I am awake and conscious in the day and at night I sleep and dream....thats the way nature designed it.....best to not fool around with mother nature....she has her nasty side....


Mikal

[melanie]

'


What a strange term to use...we never wake from it...what the dream???
If that was the case why would nature design things so that there is waking moments but also a need for night, sleep and dreaming....
Mikal

Hi Mikal,
If you want to understand more about what the terminology ''Awakening to the dream'' really means,
I would strongly suggest you read the following books if you haven't already.

If you truly want to fully grasp what it is nameless, drifter and some others here are talking about, regarding the true meaning of consciousness.
Then you will find that meaning in these books and many more like them.






I've read these books and many more like them.

It's the best thing i ever did with my life.


melanie.

[melanie]

Hi Nameless....the moment we take thoughts and fix them into an unmoveable structure, it is the creation of an ideology. Nothing more starkly stops human progress than ideology.



here is a quote for you....

"To live in the comfort of ideology is to live in delusion. The sign of a healthy civilization is the existence of a relatively clear language in which everyone can participate in their own way. The sign of a sick civilization is the growth of an obscure, closed language that seeks to prevent communication."



Mikal

Mikal this is simply just worn-out .. out-dated ..oldschool ideas

But please don't take my word for that.
You cannot fix thoughts they do not exist.
________

In reality it's not about fixing anything into fixed closed ideas.

In reality it's not about closed ideologies.

It's not about unmovable stuck ideologies.

Or civilizations becoming sick because of these ideologies.
___________

It's quite the contrary ....

It's about the un-doing, the un-raveling, of the very fact that these sick ideologies exist in the first place.

It is about the doing away once and for all..
of any false beliefs about there being unmovable stuck sick ideologies.

It's subtle.....It's tricky....Educate your no-self.


Take your little 'i' out of the equation and you'll SEE


No offence....it's not my nature.