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Thread: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Sorry, Mikal for spamming your thread , but I had another interesting thought regarding this and it involves compatibility or visibility.

    Let's say that there exists an unknowable "true objective" reality "out there" and let's analogize life, similar to the analogy above of a current "spread" of estimates for pi, or similarly in terms of a physical analogy as a bubble that encompasses some volume of space compatibly - everything experienced would then be similar to either a refinement of the precision of pi, or in the bubble analogy, a continual expansion of this to include a larger volume of experiences.

    Now if you look at anything "within" this, it's always a subcomponent of the totality of experience - for example, an object in ones experience could be considered similar to a smaller bubble contained within ones own totality of experience.

    As another analogy, imagine a radio that can dial in some range of frequencies and that specific events and things in life are similar to specific channels within this range. Now if the total range of this increases, it can come to include new events.

    If we go back to the bubble analogy, a "smaller" bubble seen/experienced within that could actually arise from the intersection between ones own space and an unlimited number of other possible "bubbles". It's only the area of overlap that is experienced - anything with the same form in the overlapped region would appear identical, no matter how it extends outside of ones own "bubble" and similar to the analogy of dialiing in different channels on a radio, that could be analogized to a specific channel potentially containing more information than was recognized while listening - in other words, there can be a growing depth or context to the same "surface" of interaction (and another analogy is similar to learning about depth in 3 dimensions by seeing or interacting with 2 dimensional surfaces over time).

    Anyway, if we looked at what the largest volume of such a space would be, it would be compatible with everything in that space. Things contained within any space would then be subsets of this that excluded interactions with some components. So the "outward" direction could be seen similar to a growing comprehension or compatibility with elements in a space.

    An interesting consideration here is that there are many ways to fill a space - a uniform expansion of a sphere is just one manner, but many detailed pathways could be constructed to fill a volume. For example, in order to reach some present moment, many different sequences of events in the past could lead to the same present moment and that could be seen similar to many possible pathways intersecting a point in this space.

    If the space is infinite, then those pathways would be defined in terms of manners of growth and not specific positions (and that could be seen similar to a determination by ones values - those would define the manner of motion/growth in this as well as what things were seen to be contained within a space).

    Anyway, this is something to consider with respect to "observational biases" - the source of growth is not contained within ones visible sphere, also, though any number of different shapes and sizes of these can exist, each individually describes its own totality and so this gives the uniqueness of the self-perspective - imagined external perspectives are only visible in terms of internal intersections - basically every "thing" is at its own center and only describes itself precisely. Witnessed components are contained by that doing the witnessing, though these witnessed components can extend arbitrarily far beyond those aspects that are observed/witnessed/known etc. to exist.

    Again, the largest possible space described by oneself would appear to be most inclusive view and not leave any component out and so the totality of oneself would be that aspect that is not exclusive in any respect. (I'm not saying that's good or bad , but simply that such would appear to be that which describes all of what one is)

    Those are just some more thoughts to kick around ... I do enjoy exploring ideas that push the envelope a bit!

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    Grandmaster austintorn@aol.com's Avatar
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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Sounds fractal.

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by austintorn@aol.com View Post
    …similar to a wavefunction in quantum mechanics, or alternately the idea of parallel universes as a range of possible details.

    As events unfold over time, the extent of precision of the present state can be refined and lead to expansions in other areas.
    — Steve

    This was one of my TOEs once, either that all evolved withing the wavefunction and then it collapsed into the real, it working the best, and then went on, or that all is still within the wavefunction, and the future detailed the present and the past accordingly to what worked (David Darling thought this one).
    Thanks. It appears something that could be demonstrated in a workable form, very similar to the manner in which irrational numbers are placed with continually greater refinement on a real number line, as their precision is required to be increased in order to resolve potential overlaps and maintain and order number line.

    The real number line is (and I've noticed a mistake in the definitions that leaves the real numbers potentially compressible into a point or single number and this where the "mathematics" of black holes arose from ) defined by elements that are sorted according to magnitude a<b<c<...<x<y<z. I've seen this instead defined as less than or equal to but that's not a good definition as it leaves it undetermined as to which is the case. Instead, all numbers equal to each other should be considered to be the same number, such as a<b=c<d<e<..., in which case b and c are equal, but a truely fundamental equality should simply refer to the same thing and the b=c equality should just be rewritten as a single value.

    Anyway, if conscious time occurs in terms of making decisions that are not predetermined, then deterministic structures could be evaluated effectively instantaneously relative to conscious experiences of time (the instantaneous or entangled wavefunction relative to an environment). So it could be that a conscious action that requires some increase in precision to an environment can instantly expand the context to whatever finite precision is compatible with the present conscious state.

    That seems funky, but if we can't see things from an outside perspective, then it appears an entirely workable solution - there's never anything that can be verified beyond the known present state.

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by austintorn@aol.com View Post
    Sounds fractal.
    Good comment - it can arise from the recursive reference to a beyond that isn't directly referencable. In that case, a single unknown can be projected into as many unknowns as one wants and the differences can't necessarily be verified, so similar to fractal structures there can appear to be a repetition of identical or self-embedded aspects to such recursive structures.

    For example, the concept of +1 implies an infinite recursion if we say that this always results in another number as there is no limit to how many times this operation can be applied. In a similar sense, saying that we could, from a "present" state, select 1 of 2 options and arrive at another state, which is simply defined to also be a "present", implies a binary fractal tree continually allowing a recursive binary decision to exist.

    When we pay closer attention to these though, they don't really repeat precisely and each time the context differs. That's where we can find things to be asymmetric and unique and non-repetitive and then time becomes and unfolding of complex structures instead of being stuck in indeterminant loops that don't describe things as extended motions.

    The "problem" (sort of, it depends upon the context) is that there's no manner to list or enumerate ahead of time, what the results will become with an unlimited number of such reapplications of these motions or choices and so there's a finite window of visibility, that only grows to the extent someone is paying attention

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    So, did everything evolve in a quantum-like superposition of everything, one path leading to some 'success' that then collapsed the wave function of the universe, actual-izing it, or, are we still in the wave function, with path of some 'success' of continuing on to make the past correspond? Or, even, did the future make what we have now?

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by austintorn@aol.com View Post
    So, did everything evolve in a quantum-like superposition of everything, one path leading to some 'success' that then collapsed the wave function of the universe, actual-izing it, or, are we still in the wave function, with path of some 'success' of continuing on to make the past correspond? Or, even, did the future make what we have now?
    I think every single one of those can be fit into the same model.

    Collapsed states are what define where the wavefunction exits, so they're in many ways implied already by the existence of the wavefunction.

    The future can also determine the past, though it would appear that any controlled influence of this would likely occur similar to evolutionary stages where pathways in both directions are taken for a finite segment of time and then when they reintersect a new bidirectional loop is constructed (likely on some larger scale).

    I don't know how an infinite represention of time could be interleaved in any backwards manner though, though in that respect forwards and backwards could appear very similar - in either perspective time is a sequence of "next" events and so it's fundamentally forward in either case. The way to create a predetermination is to select a finite window over which to extend things and for that segment there can then exist causation in both directions in time (physical laws appear to possess this), though such an extension would appear to have to include novel/unknown components and so it could be closer to determining one or more checkpoints and leaving the segments between open ended.

    Basically, you could determine a finite set of attributes regarding time reversed segments, though these may not need to be of a predetermined length (though then you'd have to determine how a variable or dynamically recursive bidirectional predetermination could operate).

    As another analogy, imagine taking a single "forward" timeline and constructing duplicate, but reversed segments of it. The endpoints of such reversals could be similar to those checkpoints (you couldn't have reversed events without being able to select such an extent over which they're reversed, and nothing within such a reversed version of time would appear to alter that because the fact of its reversal would be attached to the selection of that span over which it was reversed).

    There can be quite a bit more detail though and here's something that's related:

    Let's assume that there's a continual evolution from an equivalent of a point origin for "self". Time/growth can be multiplexed into many simultaneous contexts and appear as both singular or distributed as we can unite any number of simultaneous selections into a single collective action. For example, we could factor 1 of 9 decisions into a pair of 1 of 3 decisions, so we can have time/change exist as distributed/parallel as well as many other combinations of projections. (Doing that would require the existence of distinct contexts in which to observe those and it's basically related to combinatorial operations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorics - unique conscious perceptions would need to be associated with these combinations in order to distinguish between them)

    ... oh there's just a ton of stuff. One thing I was looking at is that memory and spacial positions could be transformable between observers - if we look at the number of diverse ways in which multiple observers could reach the same position within a space containing linear dimensions, the spacial position relative to the unique pathways taken to reach them is highly compressed and in order to allow those observational pathways to remain distinct, and additional memory of that past history would appear needed, though it's interesting to see that the density of these positions in space could vary and that in the case of a motion in which the position already describes the pathway taken (a position for which only one path reaches it), then no additional memory is required of the motion - it would be redundant, it's already described by the spacial position and this could act similar to time dilation as well.

    In another sense though, my statements wouldn't be complete as the most that appears to be logically 'doable' is to attempt to construct an inverse projection of observations "within" and extrapolate this to what could exist "beyond", but that might, at most, describe a subset and the representation would still be a construction "within", but let's at least look at some of this and see what the implications could be.

    There are some other interesting things to consider if we look at things in terms of visible asymmetries to a state and what controlled or determined aspects could appear available from some position (for example, if a growth from a point origin constructed a structure symmetrical along some dimension, then it would appear there would be no way to control or determine the next motion relative to that property - that could also be seen similar to both Mikal's comments regarding an individuation - it's the asymmetries that allow for extended space to be known, as well as a potentially selective mechanism along the lines of Leskey's comments).

    ... there are still a lot of other interesting things to consider, but I've got to hit the sack for now.

    Nighters,
    Steve

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Some problems are that the wave function only stays put for very small entities, collapsing for all else. Perhaps a tiny spec of dust or smaller is at the boundary—and perhaps gravity is responsible for the collapse.

    Another problem is that collisions collapse the wave functions of the tiny stuff.

    Another is that we detect wave functions collapses, so how could we still be in a wave function?

    Looks like the macro realm is real, if not the micro, as well as the present and the past.





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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    Hi Steve…sorry to get back here so late…work again and pretty tired tonight with another long shift early tomorrow…delighted to see my post and Suares work generated so much thought but tonight my mind is too tired to absorb all the info…will do that on my day off on Wednesday…but for now thought I would drop some more of Suares work….to give you some more to think about….smiles…


    Three Worlds—Outside, Inside, Beyond Spacetime—Suares
    The Letter Numbers of the Hebrew Alphabet
    (1) Archetypal World
    Aleph-the universal life/death force/intemporal consciousness/abstract principle of all that is or is not—1

    Bayt/Vayt-archetype of all "dwellings", of all containers: the physical support without which nothing is.—2

    Ghimel-Movement/the organic movement of every Bayt animated by Aleph—3

    Dallet-Resistance to destruction/physical existence, as response to life, of all that, in nature, is organically active with Ghimel. Where the structure is inorganic Dallet is its own resistance to destruction—4

    Hay-Organic Life-archetype of inIversal life--Biological: Cell: Transmits impulses (life current)—5

    (When it is conferred upon Dallet, it allows it to play the game of existence, in partnership with the intermittent life-death process)
    Vav/Waw-Sex/fertility-expresses the fertilizing agent, that which impregnates. It is the direct result of Hay upon Dallet—6

    Zayn-Indetermination-the achievement of every vital impregnation: this number opens the field of every possible possibility—7

    Hhayt-Unstructured energy-the sphere of storage of all undifferentiated energy, or unstructured substance. It expresses the most un-evolved state of energy, as opposed to its achieved freedom in Zayn—8

    Tayt-Structure/archetype of the primeval female energy, draws its life from Hayt and builds it gradually into structures.—9
    If I see a train coming and your on the track...if I don't tell you, it will be a pity for you and a shame on me....

  9. #1349
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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    (2) The Existential World--from Yod no. 10 to Tsadde no. 90, describe the process of the nine archetypes in their factual, conditioned existence: their projections in manifestation are always multiples of 10.

    Yod-continuity/existence-duration-recursive expansion—10
    (The biological process is intimately connected to Aleph projecting itself from timeless to temporal.)—Suares, Spectrograms

    Kaf/Kahf-the action of physical supports/ represents the physical support or container acting through unstructured probability to give life—20 Suares, Spectrograms

    Lammed -the process of the biosphere -the vital process of action-response-action-response which can be seen in all wave motion particularly in the propagation of electromagnetic waves—30

    Mem- more generally the medium in which all motion takes place—40

    Noun -Life in existence proliferating giving Life endlessly for itself in itself.—50

    Sammekh-The female energy like Vav only wrapping around itself passing or acting through the waters (Mem) produces the physical container of Yod which is Kaf (20) and/or the cosmic principle of Life Kaf (500) which continues as in Aleph with Phay-Hay, the birth of Life (Hay) from undifferentiated energy process (Phay). We point out the role of the female in space-time is both in existence by literally giving birth to physical containers of life Kaf (20) and in the cosmos by providing mankind with his destiny Kaf (500). In either case the product is the same -- Life (Hay)—60 Suares, Spectrograms

    Ayn -Two letters which link the two flows, energy and its inverse: Zayn and Ayn.

    Ayn has the same anatomy as Zayn, only it represents probability not amplitude for probability—70

    (Thus it reinforces the action of the ascendance Zayn (7) -- Ayn (70) -- Noun (700). Suares, Spectrograms
    Pay/Phay - Undifferentiated probability gives rise to life—80

    Tsadde -This anatomy, the most complex of all, shows the quality of Tsadde as the expression of structural energy—90

    (Its meaning may be expressed as well by the cell acting through or responding to existence proliferating in a double structuralisation -- the Lammed-Dalled game of organic life -- non-symmetrically but yet mirror images imaged through Yod and Dallet, one in a sense building upon the other in endless rains of fertile activity.) Suares, Spectrograms
    If I see a train coming and your on the track...if I don't tell you, it will be a pity for you and a shame on me....

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    Re: Consciousness, Transcendence & Integration

    (3) The Cosmic World—the nine multiples of 100 express the exalted archetypes in their cosmic states.

    Qof—(Cain) that mythical destroyer of illusions-Aleph exalted—100

    Raysh- the cosmic container of all existence has its roots in the intense organic movement of the universe—200

    Seen/Sheen- which is symbolically the 'Breath' of God. Sheen looks very similar to the symbol for the wave function in quantum mechanics (psi) or the psi field of extra-sensory-perception. Sheen then represents a motion beyond the speed of light. It thus can be compared to pure thought, instantaneous communication, and the collapse of the wave function paradox in quantum physics. Sheen is the projection of Ghimel (3) thought Lammed (30) breaking through the light barrier—300 Suares, Spectrograms

    Tav- is the exaltation of the entire cosmic existence in its utmost capacity to resist to life-death. The root Dallet-Mem (Dam) is "blood" in Hebrew and the root Mem-Tav (Met) is "death." Thus the two together express the complete cycle of existence—400

    Final Khaf- Kaf in final (the 20 becomes 500) is the action of Kaf in the cosmic. We remember that Kaf (20) is the physical container of Aleph, i.e. of Yod and thus in space-time, of man. Thus Kaf becoming 500 is man realizing his cosmic ultimate which is Hay (5) projecting through Noun (50) to cosmic Life -- Kaf (500). It is here through the finals that we see the cross-connections of 20 projecting to 500 and of 5-50-500 and it is here that man's hope and destiny of cosmic fulfillment are found. It is here that we have universal life -- cosmic consciously alive—500 Suares, Spectrograms

    Final Mem- in Genesis I 6-8 it is written that God divided the waters. Perhaps there is a connection with the process of photosynthesis or perhaps here we have the message of the two Mems 40 and 600 ... whereas Mem (40) is the non-resistance allowing life to continue, Mem (600) is the projection Vav (6) -- Sammekh (60) -- Mem (600), and thus is the ultimate autogenesis of the universe. It is both a projection cross-wise across the table of non-resisting response and the cosmic process of fertilization. Perhaps here is the vital secret of the origin of life. At the Cosmic level Kaf (500) gives rise to the cosmic creativity of Mem (600). Suares, Spectrograms

    Final Noun- represents the seed or probability amplitude - probability -- indetermination, the ultimate freedom. In physics, this is Heisenberg's Principle without which no universe is possible. It is vital and still eludes the physicists grasp and perhaps it is here that we see why, for it is a principle whose ultimate rationale lies on the cosmic side of the wall of light. Yet it is in projection Noun (50) which is life in man becoming ultimately cosmically indeterminate Noun (700) that we again find man's destiny—700 Suares, Spectrograms

    Final Phay- Here we find that the alternatives of living energy beginning in the pool of unstructured energy -- coming into life -- comes ultimately into cosmic or universal energy, literally all is possible—800 Suares, Spectrograms

    Final Tsadde- Tsadde in final (the 90 becomes 900) is the ultimate realization and accomplishment of the universal structure. It progresses from Tayt (9) the primary cell to Tsadde (90) -- the living cell and female principle of coming together -- to the ultimate Tsadde (900) the sign of transfigured female and supreme beauty—900 Suares, Spectrograms

    The number 1000, is written with an enlarged Aleph (Aleph, in Hebrew actually means a thousand), but is seldom used. It expresses a supreme power, a tremendous cosmic energy, all-pervading, timeless, unthinkable.
    If I see a train coming and your on the track...if I don't tell you, it will be a pity for you and a shame on me....

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