Reducing pain and happiness to possibilities

[Mr. Ignorant]

Just a few moments ago I had this sudden flash of insight. It's probably broken, flawed and oversimplified, but I feel like there's something to it. Hear me out and give me your thoughts.

Pain seems to limit your possibilities. When you put your hand in a fire it's hard to keep it in the fire. It limits your possibilities and forces you to move it out of the fire. When we desire something, we tend to forget other things and focus ourselves on this desire. There's a decrease in possibilities. Not having fulfilled the desire is painful in some sense.

When we're happy it seems like everything is possible, like we can do anything. There seems to be an increase in possibilities. Perhaps it's this increase in possibilities that's the source of happiness.

Some time ago I've read that living is a creative art. Depressed people have forgotten that they're artists. That they're in control of their lives. Perhaps it's their lack of possibilities that make them depressed.They must remember and regain their possibilities in order to become happy.

So perhaps we can understand pain and happiness in terms of the absence and presence of possibilities. These possibilities may very well be described by quantum mechanics like an electron that is in superposition. We need a big superposition to be happy. A small superposition makes us sad.

What do you think?

[Graybeard]

Just a few moments ago I had this sudden flash of insight. It's probably broken, flawed and oversimplified, but I feel like there's something to it. Hear me out and give me your thoughts.

Pain seems to limit your possibilities. When you put your hand in a fire it's hard to keep it in the fire. It limits your possibilities and forces you to move it out of the fire. When we desire something, we tend to forget other things and focus ourselves on this desire. There's a decrease in possibilities. Not having fulfilled the desire is painful in some sense.

When we're happy it seems like everything is possible, like we can do anything. There seems to be an increase in possibilities. Perhaps it's this increase in possibilities that's the source of happiness.

Some time ago I've read that living is a creative art. Depressed people have forgotten that they're artists. That they're in control of their lives. Perhaps it's their lack of possibilities that make them depressed.They must remember and regain their possibilities in order to become happy.

So perhaps we can understand pain and happiness in terms of the absence and presence of possibilities. These possibilities may very well be described by quantum mechanics like an electron that is in superposition. We need a big superposition to be happy. A small superposition makes us sad.

What do you think?

I think both pleasure and pain are of a kind. Both suffer from limited possibilities and disguise reality.

cool bananas ... greg

[labelwench]

The line of define between pleasure and pain can be hard to discern, and where that line is varies from individual to individual.

While pain may frequently be considered a limiting factor, getting beyond that same pain can be a motivating factor, and it has often been said that to accomplish many goals, one must first pay the price in pain.

Pleasure, likewise, can be a reward, or an excess of pleasure and the pursuit of it may actually rob us of energy for other purposes, in which case pleasure becomes more limiting than pain.

It is our attitude toward pleasure and pain that gives them meaning.

Pleasure and pain are the universal cues that invoke change or movement, as we seek or avoid, one or the other.

[austintorn@aol.com]

If one is suffering then it is often the case that one is doing something wrong, even if it's apparently something unavoidable, like living in a bad country.

[Mikal]

Just a few moments ago I had this sudden flash of insight. It's probably broken, flawed and oversimplified, but I feel like there's something to it. Hear me out and give me your thoughts.

Pain seems to limit your possibilities. When you put your hand in a fire it's hard to keep it in the fire. It limits your possibilities and forces you to move it out of the fire. When we desire something, we tend to forget other things and focus ourselves on this desire. There's a decrease in possibilities. Not having fulfilled the desire is painful in some sense.

When we're happy it seems like everything is possible, like we can do anything. There seems to be an increase in possibilities. Perhaps it's this increase in possibilities that's the source of happiness.

Some time ago I've read that living is a creative art. Depressed people have forgotten that they're artists. That they're in control of their lives. Perhaps it's their lack of possibilities that make them depressed.They must remember and regain their possibilities in order to become happy.

So perhaps we can understand pain and happiness in terms of the absence and presence of possibilities. These possibilities may very well be described by quantum mechanics like an electron that is in superposition. We need a big superposition to be happy. A small superposition makes us sad.

What do you think?

I hope you don’t mind but I would like to call you Mr. Iggy…if that is alright with you.
Other than your example of putting your hand in a fire and preventing outer pain, I refer here to another type of pain called ‘inner pain.’

Actually as far as I know from tons of research based on my own experience of life, our tendency to dislike pain and not accept it as a natural part of life has led us through devolution rather than evolution.

This is hypothesized because pain is of an emotional nature and our refusal to stick with pain and see it through has decreased our possibilities for emotional/psychological maturity.
Based on my own experience I feel this hypothesis to be true because life served me with a tragedy, a painful tragedy.

You see with usual painful situations in life we build boundaries to protect us from pain for example if our elderly parent dies we tell ourselves that it’s the natural end of their lives and the boundary prevents us from feeling the loss to the depth we should. Also if someone has a fatal disease we build boundaries there too simply by telling ourselves death for them is inevitable.

There are no boundaries we can build in a tragedy because they happen suddenly and change many lives in an instant. The only protection we get is ‘shock’ which is our own inner intelligence disallowing us for a short while, to connect everything together. Shock prevents us from being emotionally overwhelmed in a solitary moment. As it fades, we are allowed to make connections and without boundaries we have no choice but to let the pain progress and we thereby experience emotional/psycholoigical maturity. From that state one loses their fear of pain, allows life just to be in its own unpredictable state and one finds their own possibilities of potential for both happiness and pain.

I speak from the experience Mr. Iggy and all my research supported what I myself concluded. I do agree with you that it is indeed an interesting subject and I hope you do not mind me involving this other type of pain in your examination here as it may give you some further considerations on the subject matter.

Regards Mikal

[Mr. Ignorant]

Something I must mention is that I'm talking about a certain kind of possibilities. There are two kinds of possibilities. The first one can exist in a world without quantum physics. Let's say you want to buy ice cream and you have a lot of possible flavors. The flavor that you will choose is determined deterministically. However those possibilities were still there. It just wasn't possible to actually choose them, because determinism prevented you from doing that. The flavor you were going to choose was already determined. The possibilities were only illusions.

However in the world of quantum physics perhaps those flavors were offered in a superposition of you picking all the flavors at the same time. The choice that you're going to make isn't deterministic. It's literally up to you. Your free will is in control. When I'm talking about possibilities here, I mean the latter.

I think both pleasure and pain are of a kind. Both suffer from limited possibilities and disguise reality.

cool bananas ... greg

Are you sure it's pleasure itself? Not seeking pleasure? Seeking pleasure is because you lack it. This can be considered pain.

What is reality really like without pain and pleasure?

The line of define between pleasure and pain can be hard to discern, and where that line is varies from individual to individual.

While pain may frequently be considered a limiting factor, getting beyond that same pain can be a motivating factor, and it has often been said that to accomplish many goals, one must first pay the price in pain.

Sometimes you need to limit your possibilities in order to get more later?

Pleasure, likewise, can be a reward, or an excess of pleasure and the pursuit of it may actually rob us of energy for other purposes, in which case pleasure becomes more limiting than pain.

Perhaps that is an illusion. Can you give any examples?

It is our attitude toward pleasure and pain that gives them meaning.

Pleasure and pain are the universal cues that invoke change or movement, as we seek or avoid, one or the other.

Do you mean that pain can be interpreted pleasurable?

If one is suffering then it is often the case that one is doing something wrong, even if it's apparently something unavoidable, like living in a bad country.

Being in a bad country limits your possibilities so that is painful?

I hope you don’t mind but I would like to call you Mr. Iggy…if that is alright with you.

Of course.

Other than your example of putting your hand in a fire and preventing outer pain, I refer here to another type of pain called ‘inner pain.’

Actually as far as I know from tons of research based on my own experience of life, our tendency to dislike pain and not accept it as a natural part of life has led us through devolution rather than evolution.

This is hypothesized because pain is of an emotional nature and our refusal to stick with pain and see it through has decreased our possibilities for emotional/psychological maturity.

Perhaps it's impossible to stick with pain because pain is like labelwench said forcing you to change?

Based on my own experience I feel this hypothesis to be true because life served me with a tragedy, a painful tragedy.

You see with usual painful situations in life we build boundaries to protect us from pain for example if our elderly parent dies we tell ourselves that it’s the natural end of their lives and the boundary prevents us from feeling the loss to the depth we should. Also if someone has a fatal disease we build boundaries there too simply by telling ourselves death for them is inevitable.

Yes, again, this inner pain or fear seems to limit our possibilities.

There are no boundaries we can build in a tragedy because they happen suddenly and change many lives in an instant. The only protection we get is ‘shock’ which is our own inner intelligence disallowing us for a short while, to connect everything together. Shock prevents us from being emotionally overwhelmed in a solitary moment. As it fades, we are allowed to make connections and without boundaries we have no choice but to let the pain progress and we thereby experience emotional/psycholoigical maturity. From that state one loses their fear of pain, allows life just to be in its own unpredictable state and one finds their own possibilities of potential for both happiness and pain.

So you're saying pain is only a negative interpretation?

I speak from the experience Mr. Iggy and all my research supported what I myself concluded. I do agree with you that it is indeed an interesting subject and I hope you do not mind me involving this other type of pain in your examination here as it may give you some further considerations on the subject matter.

Regards Mikal

I start to see many flaws in my idea, but that's okay. I expected that to happen. It was an interesting attempt to reduce seemingly fundamental emotions like pain and happiness to something even more fundamental.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject. It's interesting to see different perspectives.

[labelwench]

Pleasure, likewise, can be a reward, or an excess of pleasure and the pursuit of it may actually rob us of energy for other purposes, in which case pleasure becomes more limiting than pain.
Originally posted by Labelwench

Perhaps that is an illusion. Can you give any examples?
Originally posted by Mr. I.

What are persons seeking in the pursuit of pleasure? Though persons have the means to pursue any worldly thing, they frequently do not derive 'pleasure' from this activity, and many persons who may appear to have every opportunity that life could offer, have turned to substance abuse and sometimes even suicide.

That is my sad example and perhaps they are indeed pursuing an illusion, and therefore can never attain their 'goal'.

[labelwench]

It is our attitude toward pleasure and pain that gives them meaning.
Pleasure and pain are the universal cues that invoke change or movement, as we seek or avoid, one or the other.
Originally posted by Labelwench

Do you mean that pain can be interpreted pleasurable?
Originally posted by Mr. I.

If we choose pain knowingly, in the pursuit on an objective, and we logically assess that the pain is bearable and worthy of the outcome, and IFF we then achieve the desired outcome, the pain becomes pleasurable as we then equate the pain endured with the pleasure of the outcome.

For some, the journey alone is the value regardless of whether or not objectives are achieved, and for these persons, pain or pleasure are deemed to be the same, by my understanding of their teachings.

For each person, the choices and circumstances will vary and an example that may be logical to some would be unthinkable to others.

What motivates people to make the choices they do? Even when given the same set of initial conditions, the choices will ever be variable.

Perhaps that is the appeal of the game of Chess?

[austintorn@aol.com]

Being in a bad country limits your possibilities so that is painful?

If the suffering was too much, then one would have to try to move. Same if the suffering was caused by a spouse and there was no cure.

Or, if a tooth hurts, one must usually go to the dentist.

Also, always think of what feels fine and doesn't hurt, for there are no large automatic reports of this as there are from pain.

[labelwench]

Being in a bad country limits your possibilities so that is painful?

If the suffering was too much, then one would have to try to move. Same if the suffering was caused by a spouse and there was no cure.

Or, if a tooth hurts, one must usually go to the dentist.

Also, always think of what feels fine and doesn't hurt, for there are no large automatic reports of this as there are from pain.

An interesting observation that there are more reports of 'pain' than there are of 'pleasure'.

Why does one suppose this would be?

Are 'pain' and 'pleasure' not to be found in equal measure throughout the universe?

Perhaps we are just a tiny bit selfish in sharing 'pleasure', or perhaps 'pleasure' is a personal perception which is not always capable of being shared.

After all, pleasurable personal intimacies are intimate........subjective and unverifiable as well......and so we do not go there.......

Dude. Too much information!