[Uncommon man]

Originally Posted by dleviwing

Socratus;
Your thread appears to be more suited for the "Spirituality Forum". Any reference to a "God created this" philosophy has no place in the science of cosmology.

As i understand it this forum is for science and philosophy it would shorly be foolish to bin anything on the way.

[Uncommon man]

Originally Posted by <<<GUILLE>>>

Once I wrote in a post (I think it was a reply to you in the 'Who is your god (or not)' thread) a conversation between Lagrange, Napoleon and Laplace, which includes my answer (in Laplace's words). Basically, god explains everything yes, but we go nowhere with it, because we neither predict, nor describe, nor cover any other area which science should achieve by it's theories (including practice; have we developed any tool from the idea of god, that has improved our lifes? NO).

That depends on what you classifie as a tool if it is anything that can be of used by humanity then of course prayer some may not understand its use but that dose not alter the fact it is used all over the world by billions.

[michellemfry]

Hi Uncommon Man,
As much as I hate to ask, could we go back to another section with this line of discussion. I have to clean these things up later and the subject of God will end up being edited out of here. Don't worry, I still adore the subject matter, but need to keep my sections on topic is all. Thanks so much for understanding...
Sincerely,

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Uncommon man

I wish i could to those that believe they have proof all around them, the closer we get to the TOE the more we Will see of gods work.

You may well have a point there!


kind regards michael.

[dleviwing]

The forum of "Cosmology" is a forum of science. This thread needs to be moved to the "Spiritual" or "Metaphysics" forum.

[harmonygirl]

Originally Posted by <<<GUILLE>>>

The world is not like this. I mean, the world is not 'my world', 'your world', 'his world', 'her world'... The world doesn't exist according to our dictation, as you once told me. Or should we accept that all views of the world are true (as subversion defends) and therefore admit, for example, that the Nazi view that the arian race is the unique perfect race and the rest should be erradicated, is correct?

It's not that we disagree about what the goddes has given us, it's that I believe there is no godess to give anything. And never ever never have I recieved any poitn from you or other theists to believe there is a godess. And even if there was a godess, it wouldn't affect my life: you are not more happy/positive due to the fact that you believe in the godess, you are more happy/positive because you recieve a confidence-in-the-world sensation and other 'intuitional statements' from the belief. Some people are like you, in fact, most, and like and feel ok about lying to themselves in order to feel happiness... Well I'll tell you that I prefer to live and die unhappy if it is what I need (and it is) to follow the truth (which you so much times mention and talk about exaltivelly, but really don't follow you'r own words). There is no reason to believe that the universe is evolving into a deeper apreciation of the beauty of nature, in fact, we've lost the ideal of beauty, and we don't even know wether the universe allows a deeper understanding of anything, if not we would have the TOE (I mean, by this, that the TOE won¡'t be acheived by some magical jump from present knowledge to future knowledge, that it won't be a new thing that we don't have, for this is not possible, as we are humans, so we will ahcieve the TOE step by step, inventing and improving).

Guille, you are employing all or nothing thinking and this is misleading. It is very much your world and my world. You have just said that objective reality doesn't exist, so you are being inconsistent. You think I am lying to myself, very well, I think you are lying to yourself. Your reality is not mine. I believe yours is wrong, you believe mine is wrong. Who is ultimately right? (well, I am of course, but for the discussion...)
Perhaps the difference is that I know that I am not more right than you, but you have yet to discover this. There is a line in a book I once read "I wish I was 17 again, when I had all the answers"...

[ANDY J]

Originally Posted by <<<GUILLE>>>

Socratus,

Before of talking about god does, has done, or will do, please proof that god can do at all (exist).

Proofing God exists would be akin to finding the TOE we all have faith in things we cannot explain gravity, magnetism, life, time, thats why we are here trying to explain them God is another thing on the list some are certain he exists as certain as we are that gravity keeps us pinned down on earth but explaining it is another matter i see no reason to separate believe and science i see them looking for the same answers.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by Uncommon man

I wish i could to those that believe they have proof all around them, the closer we get to the TOE the more we Will see of gods work.

There is a problem with 'faith', that it leads to radicalism. If you have a friend who has faith in a god that tells him he should kill all of those who do not worship to his god, what would you do? Try to convince your friend, I guess. But how? You can't use rationality or any kind of arguments. And so you will be able to do nothing for him or for those he will kill. And this is a place for the search of truth, this is not achieved by claims. In fact there is a policy against posts which include toe-related claims, so please if you don't have any background or any reason to give why we will see the god's work as we get nearer to the toe, don't claim it. This is a webpage done for discussion, not for stupidity.

[subversion]

Originally Posted by <<<GUILLE>>>

(including practice; have we developed any tool from the idea of god, that has improved our lifes? NO).

Believing in god just means you have a profound appreciation for the physical nature of everything. Basically it means you're an optimist. It is not unscientific, in fact I'm not even sure that it is concerned with science at all. It is simply a belief in rapture and appreciation. To not appreciate everything is a shame whether you call it believing in God or simply believing in good. God is simply another word for good you see, that's all it is. So maybe it would help you Guille if instead of hearing the words, "do you believe in God" maybe you can interpret it to mean "do you believe in good?" In my mind, the proof that "god exists" is the simple fact that we exist, and that our existence is a good thing. If we exist and if it is a good thing that we exist, then this proves that "goodnes" i.e. "god" exists. This is the way that I believe.

That having been said, I want to comment on a few quotes

by harmony "I agree with Mike, the universe is evolving so that there is a deeper appreciation of the beauty of nature which is wider spread than it has been"

This is what I am saying is the destiny, and thus the meaning, of life. The meaning of life is to appreciate life, and evolution brings us closer to this end. As we understand more and more about how the universe works we can begin to truly appreciate on a deeper level just what reality is. So as the universe evolves so does life, and one creature in particular inevitably figures out the most amazing secrets of reality, and this gives him/her the greatest appreciation he/she could have for everything. This person is essentially god himself, or rather, the first enlightened one. So in other words, the TOE comes about inevitably, it is unavoidable, it is the purpose of evolution, it is the destiny of the universe, and it's purpose is to give us appreciation and understanding for the goodness of everything (as well as the ability to easily travel anywhere in the universe and cool stuff like that, obviously).

my next quote is by Guille "The world doesn't exist according to our dictation, as you once told me. Or should we accept that all views of the world are true (as subversion defends) and therefore admit, for example, that the Nazi view that the arian race is the unique perfect race and the rest should be erradicated, is correct?"

In order to answer this question, we have to wonder what is the absolute correct opinion, and perhaps more importantly, is there an absolute correct opinion, or is there only all? Perhaps if there is not an absolute correct opinion, we will have to accept the fact that all things are created equal. According to the Nazi view, erradicating non germans was a good idea, but according to non-germans, it was a bad idea. So who's to say which idea is bad and which one is good? Maybe they are both bad, or both good. I'm not saying that the holocaust was a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying one cannot judge the events of history when one does not have a full understanding or appreciation for the impact that those events have had on the present. In other words, we don't really know what the overall effect of the holocaust was really do we? I assume everything happens for a reason, and to not appreciate anything is to not appreciate everything. Claiming that one thing is good and another thing is bad is hypocritical, because when you look at how destiny finally comes about all things have equal importance. Therefore the holocaust itself, while it was attrocious, was nonetheless an intregral part of reality, and important in the overall turn of events. So if everything that happens is equally important, then does that mean we should have no morality? NO! Just the opposite! If whatever we do automatically becomes an equally important part of destiny, then shouldn't we see to it that we bring about destiny in the way that we approve of the most? ANd isn't judgement a trivial affair anyway? Afterall, how is judging something going to change the fact that it is true? It is best to assume that whatever is true must be a good thing, at least we cannot change it, and what we can do is make sure that whatever we do in the future deserves the unavoidable status of being a true fact of reality. Remember, your only true judgement is your own actions, and if you want to do good, it's best for you to assume that everything must be good to start with. Otherwise you're screwed anyway right? You see, I'm planning for everything to end up perfectly, I'm counting on destiny you could say, but I can't understand how that can happen, if I can't make the assumption that everything was perfect to begin with. So perhaps everything truly is perfect all along, and it is only our appreciation of this fact that comes at the last minute.

[dleviwing]

Sub; It has been quite obvious to all that you feel that only you have the absolute correct opinion. You seem to be the only one who has not realized - YOU ARE WRONG!!! (this is my 666 post; quite fitting)