[neutralino]

Originally Posted by Profpat I'm a little confused by your answer. I thought the universe is flat but spherical in shape. I thought the flat part is like how the Earth appears flat if you are on the surface. Similar for the universe, but nothing inside. No molten core, just void. The balloon analogy.

The key part here is how you say that the earth appears flat. That is, since the earth is so big, the curvature is so small that it does not really affect us in everyday life: however that is not to say that it doesn't exist.

This is similar to the balloon analogy, however the balloon analogy is less precise, since we don't know for sure whether the universe is precisely flat or not... and this makes a big difference. Sure, measurements tell us that the universe is very close to flat (so if it were closed, then the "sphere" would have to be very large) but we don't know whether the universe is precisely flat and infinite, or ever so slightly curved and finite. Hopefully we will.. in a few years time!

I hope things are going well for you.

Everything is fine with me, thanks Pat: I hope you're doing well yourself.

[melanie]

I think the Universes are Finite and Infinite.
Like everything else universes must arise and fall.
Finite in that they have a life span.
And Infinite in that they are instantaneously re-spawned,
just as the tiniest cell in our body dies and is instantaneously replaced.
Appearing and Disappearing, a self sacrifice of love for the survival of the whole organism.
A sort of endless re-cycling process.
Yet The Energy that illuminates the universes must be Infinite.
Energy must have always existed.
All ''THIS'' that is 'appearing' as the world and beyond, can be nothing but energy.
Energy that is it's own source and eternally Self Sustaining.
Similar to how a spider spins it's own web from out of itself and then equally draws the silk back into itself.


Now something about shapes and forms.
Naturally our senses tell us something is round or flat.
We can say a ball is round and a baking tray is flat.
Simile we can say, looking at a mountain from far away 'appears' triangular in shape and form.
Yet on closer inspection, for example if we were actually walking up the mountain, the triangular 'appearance' would no longer apply.

So in effect the images 'appearing' to our senses can only ever be a deceptive conceptual description of a much deeper and hidden reality.
But it is the only reality 'appearing' to us as finite limited life forms at present..

Another example would be...
The canvas used by an artist is of course flat.
Yet the brush strokes 'appearing' on the flat canvas,
'appear' to jump out .... as shape and form.
Another example is the 3D magic eye pictures.
The 2D image turns to a 3D image.
When a relaxed eye focuses on the picture.

So it is my assumption that the universe is totally 100% flat or 2D
and the idea of any kind of shape or form is only a trick of the senses,
meaning there is no shape or form anywhere to be found in the universe.
It is conceptually speaking all 2 Dimensional... 'appearing' as 3D


Also every-thing is nameless and formless,
It is everywhere, there is no place too small it cannot be,
It is absolutely constant as is the speed of light. ...... 'lite' as in 'not heavy'
A very Grand illusion.

There are two kinds of light-- the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures.
—James Thurber


melanie.

[Profpat]

Hi Neutralino;

I'm glad things are going well for you things are good with me. Miss you as a moderator however.

What if the universe was is flat as a pancake, why would that make it infinite? If there was a finite beginning, how do you create infinity from that? Now if there was something from nothing than I could understand how the universe could be infinite. 0 to infinity, opposite non-ends of the spectrum.

[alphachapmtl]

Also keep in mind that a borderless flat universe can also be finite, as a flat finite section can tile an infinite space, just like the flat rectangle of a computer screen can wraparound forming a topological flat torus. Of course there are other possibilities for a 3D or 4D space. I have these references >>
http://www.amazon.com/Shape-Space-Pu.../dp/0824707095
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=is-space-finite
A finite dodecahedral Universe >>
http://luth2.obspm.fr/Compress/oct03_lum.en.html

[alphachapmtl]

also
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...er_031008.html

[Profpat]

Thank you for your input and the links alphachapmtl.

I guess Neutralino is correct in that we need more input before making the call as to whether our universe is finite or infinite.

Best to you,

Pat