[dleviwing]

Michael;
I think I can wait a long time without that ultimate proof.
Diversity of thoughts and ideas are what make it interesting to interact with people.
I find you and your ideas interesting and your convictions as strong as my own.
As often said; " a hundred years from now, what will it matter."
Best of luck;
Dave

[Graybeard]

Wow ... i was away for 4 days and missed out on this 'Big Bang of a thread' ....is it still going or has it died :}

DLeviwing ...Has anyone realized that the randomized chaotic motions of the wave functions of the universe and of subatomic particles and structures, is the disorder of entropy that everyone seems to place so much emphasis on.

I find it easier to view this as a conversion of uniform motion to wave function at the beginning (increasing entropy). The universe has been converting this wave function chaos back to uniform motion (decreasing entropy) ever since. The only thing is that matter will never return to the single condensed object as it was before the BB.

Dave .... Your saying that the Universe is going from disorder to order ???

How so ... the odds are literally against you every step of the way .. If it took place on a pool table each collision means a step towards a perfect triangle of pool balls at one end of the table and the white ball .. on its little dot ...at the other. This would be the last play .......... ??

I don't disagree that this couldn't happen, but so could any arrangement. its only one of an infinite number of arrangements.. why is this one weighted more than any other ??

Why would this pool table being driven by randomised-chaotic-wave-functions lead to such an incredible number of ordered steps, and each step closer to order.. [the universe has been converting..DLeviwing].... And if so .... Why, at the last few steps stop short... [matter will never return to the single condensed object..DLeviwing..] ?? Why do the driving forces towards uniform motion stop here ?

I believe the Big-bang [or the Big Inflation]... was the cue ball hitting the perfect triangle.... how long the balls sat on the table before being struck by the cue-ball could have been always and most likely was .. always.

Like you Dave, I don't see why a beginning has any more probability than no beginning.

Greg

[dleviwing]

Dave .... Your saying that the Universe is going from disorder to order ???

That's what I'm saying.........................

How so?... the odds are literally against you every step of the way.

Greg;
My visualization of how our universe started includes a concept of "Absolute Motion"; A fixed quantity that cannot increase or decrease. To use your pool ball analogy, all the balls are traveling with linear velocity equal to Absolute motion in many different directions. If two of these objects have an almost perfect head-on collision, then the linear velocity would be halted and converted to a vibration of the substance. This is the same as saying the order of uniform motion is now converting to the disorder of randomized chaotic wave functions (vibrations) that causes the expansion.

Ever since this event, matter (the stuff of the pool balls) has been returning to order by collecting into smaller objects of matter with angular uniform motion and thus reducing the chaos. (atoms and subatomic particles) These objects reduces the entropy further by interacting with the spatial matter (ether) and condensing it to the point that it also becomes structured matter with uniform motion.
Though it may take much longer to return to zero entropy than it did to enter it, it is these processes that will eventually remove ether from the universe and then from the galaxies and then from the structures themselves. In a sense, motion will again become totally uniform motion and the fundamental substance of the universe will become units of the cosmos.
Regards;
Dave

[Graybeard]

Hmmmmmmm............ I don't know that you have answered the question ...... tho you have explained the process.

If I understand your explanation correctly you are saying that 'ORDER' is the 'natural state' and that disorder is 'an unnatural state' caused by a special event (big bang or inflation) and that eventually, ever so slowly order will be restored.... ??

But hi-entropy is an infinite number of states with no recognisable change ..... ie: you can stir a glass of water and infinitely re-arrange the particles ..... but, from whatever angle you look at the glass..... you will not see any useful change

But lo-entropy has only one state ..... change anything ... no matter how small... and it can be detected as an increase or decrease in entropy.... scratch someones Rolls Royce while parking ... and they can instantly detect the change

My argument is not with your visualisation of the universe, which I (with limited knowledge) accept and try to understand ...

Lets change my analogy to a roulette wheel ... with an infinite range of numbers ..... all of these numbers except the ZERO represent a change towards hi-entropy .... that is, if the ball falls in any of these slots there is an undetectable change ..... the same as looking at the glass of water ante and post to the stirring..... but should the ball fall in the ZERO slot .... then entropy decreases ..... that is, an increase in order... (for the glass analogy maybe an ice crystal forms .. )

Lets play .....

In order to create 'ORDER' it is necessary for the ball to fall in the ZERO slot ..... on the first spin it beats all the odds from 1 to infinity and drops in the ZERO.... OK....So ORDER increases .....

But the next spin misses.... (we don't care what slot filled ... for our purpose of measuring entropy all the numbers except ZERO are the same result) ... DISORDER cancels out ORDER .......

In order to stay in this state, ZERO must fill on the next spin ..... MUST .... otherwise entropy will increase further .... ergo it follows that for a decrease in Entropy (Order) ZERO must come up EVERY single time .... otherwise we drift towards Hi-entropy.

How can this happen .... One number from an infinite range comes up against the odds every single time ??? This is what I understood by Steven Hawkings explanation of the broken coffee cup ...it can never become unbroken

This is the same as saying that ice will form in the glass of water at room temperature..... it never will .... unless you refrigerate it .... and the process of refrigeration will create even higher Entropy due to heat loss etc??

To me, and I frankly admit I may be missing something, this goes against all common sense .... unless the process is being driven by some design .... is this why you have called the thread the Genesis Hypothesis ??

Dave, i am not trying to be a Devil's Advocate ...just trying to understand.......

[Graybeard]

Dave .... I may have to back down on the above post .... it seems there may be a mathamatical description of increasing order ... i am only just reading it and don't fully understand it yet...............

http://www.toequest.com/forum/toe-theory-articles/1020-the-probability-the-universe.html

[dleviwing]

Hi Greg;
Though you changed your mind, I'll give you an answer anyway; it may be of help.

The Rolette wheel has no properties that imposes a control on its result. Matter however has the bonding property of "Self-affinity" this means it sticks to itself. This would be like placing a strong magnet on the Zero slot of your wheel (assuming the ball is steel).

You can't place an infinite number of slots on your wheel for that would indicate entropy to be infinite. Entropy functions in quantum increments just like EM.

The properties of matter will eventually force it to organize into a structure of order and then will continue to collapse to its most fundamental state of matter.

Though there are conflicts in the interpretations of "entropy", I view it as a measure of thermodynamic temperature. (2nd law) I consider that matter can return to a state of pure uniform motion and thus reduce the degree of freedom to Zero. This would also return entropy to Zero.

You will find that at times I do not agree with the academia and I also disagree with many of Steven's explanations of things. The broken cup is a better example of non-reversal of time than for entropy.

I am sure you realize by now that science really "Does Not Know".

To me, and I frankly admit I may be missing something, this goes against all common sense .... unless the process is being driven by some design .... is this why you have called the thread the Genesis Hypothesis ??

It was called the Genesis Hypothesis due to the fact that when all is said and done, no-one can answer the final question of whether existence came into being (genesis) or if it has always been (science). The standard model implies genesis and thus I consider it theological and not science.

I don't consider you as being a devil's advocate; I realize that you are in a learning phase. I do hope however that you are not using me or this site as your sole source of information. Make your sources diverse and many; Then let your own mind provide the final answer. This worked for me and now I'm an opinionated skeptic.

[Graybeard]

Dave ... thanks for the advice .... really

This forum isn't my sole source of information. However it is the only source I have found outside professional scientific publications & books.... there are other forums but in general i have found that this forum has a much higher level of understanding and can put forward opinions that are not crackpot but can be considered alternatives to mainstream.

Greg

[mkirkpatrick]

The universe has a beginning and also has an ending,there is a Great-cycle,a Grand-Idea made manifest,this idea is still outworking and will continue for many more aeons to come,then the Idea will be withdrawn and all energy,all manifest-tation,will fade into obscouration,and there will be a Void of "absolution"wherein no trace of matter,energy,force,mind,or even uncle tom cobblily and all,would be found,(that is if any scientist were around to measure that is)then after a pause and bare in mind this Pause could ,(again if there was a chap to measure it)last for an aeon or two,then the cycle would begin again!In our minds this seems a long long process,but it really all happens in the eternal Now?

kind regards michael.

[dleviwing]

Michael;
I'm glad you cleared that up for me; I was told that my coming into being was an accident and I told the same to my own kids.

The universe has a beginning and also has an ending

The universe may have had a beginning and may have an ending; but existence has always been!!!

How far into Buddhism are you?
Fond wishes;
Dave

[chazzysaw]

How can the universe have a beginning and be eternal. In eternity there is no time. No past no future it is the ever present Now. I feel there can be no beginning, it always was.