'The Climb Rate is Going Down' (paraphrased)

[RascalPuff]

Dear Rascal ..... I'll try to clarify. The concerned bodies who are charged with reducing the crime rate have claimed that they have achieved a reduction in the 'rate of increase of the rate of increase'. A bit like having a single spoon of sugar in every coffee you drink, but with each sequential coffee, one grain less. Sure your sugar intake is increasing by a spoon with every coffee, but you are reducing the rate of increase of the rate of increase ..... Is dat cleer ? ... lol

Crime is always on the increase/decrease depending on societal pressures. Along with the poor, the rich, the enlightened, it is always with us. A more macro statistical view will show that overall we are more compassionate than we have ever been before.

good to hear from you too buddy ....

cool bananas ... greg

Dear Greg:
Please peruse the information at the following URL and reconsider your conclusions...
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...+increasing%3f

[Graybeard]

Yessss .... I perused .... it was just a google page with thousands of returns. The first few neither supported nor contradicted. ?????

For me crime is a by-product of events that occur when resources become scarce. Shouldn't we be studying the causes of scarce resources rather than their effects.

You seem to be of the opinion that if crime increases then the responsible bodies, Police, Justice Dept, Governments etc are directly responsible.

For me it is an effect of numerous other inputs. These inputs play their part, just as importantly, in controlling the crime rate. I go along with Obama the Bahama Mama.

Our lifestyle (western) is maintained by credit. This credit is reluctantly funded by third world countries, sometimes at the point of a gun. We never make any payments on our credit cards because this would mean reducing our lifestyle and this we can never, of our own volition, do. To counterbalance this we do spend a lot of time and their money convincing our creditors that what we owe them is not the same as what they think we owe them.. in fact if they would just listen very carefully they would realise that we owe them nothing at all. Further, if they really want to have a good time, just like us, then they would be much better off letting us run their affairs for them.

Many countries took us up on this kind offer, first there was Libya, then Iran, then Vietnam, then Afghanistan, recently Iraq. As well, we knocked on many other doors and managed to get our foot in before they slammed shut. Vietnam was the only one with any sense, they called us a bully, gave us a thrashing of such magnitude that we will never be able to forget, nor will we ever be game to go near them again. They may have only been little but they turned out to be much bigger than us.

They decided they were better off without our help ... and they were right!!!

The crime rate is right on par given the current situation .... When events threaten a society's lifestyle then that society goes to war. When events threaten an individual's lifestyle then the individual resorts to crime.

Until we learn to share, and we will probably have to be taught this forcibly, than serial killers and terrorists will abound. In a few years Western Society will no longer control the majority of resources, riches, armed forces, technologies, nor the ability to dominate ... there are bigger and better players on the horizon. In Australia, we are weaker, and therefore more adaptable to this new mindset. We are learning our lesson already. My advice to you is to start taking this idea on board right now ... get used to it ... its a much closer reality than you think ... this is a message from the front.

Apart from this we like the Chinese and the Indians .... their food is great, their philosophy produces a low crime rate, and they give us lots of high paid work. They are very environmentally friendly, they happily hive together in little apartments whereas I have to destroy a forest to get the timber and space I require for my house. They are our (Australia's) new employers. They are not very good at aggressive driving on the roads and highways, but they are very nice people when you get to know them ... In fact I'm feeling a little inferior. Perhaps I always have been.

Where is the puzzle ? please post an opinion rather than a link ....

cool bananas ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Yessss .... I perused .... it was just a google page with thousands of returns. The first few neither supported nor contradicted. ?????

For me crime is a by-product of events that occur when resources become scarce. Shouldn't we be studying the causes of scarce resources rather than their effects.

You seem to be of the opinion that if crime increases then the responsible bodies, Police, Justice Dept, Governments etc are directly responsible.

For me it is an effect of numerous other inputs. These inputs play their part, just as importantly, in controlling the crime rate. I go along with Obama the Bahama Mama.

Our lifestyle (western) is maintained by credit. This credit is reluctantly funded by third world countries, sometimes at the point of a gun. We never make any payments on our credit cards because this would mean reducing our lifestyle and this we can never, of our own volition, do. To counterbalance this we do spend a lot of time and their money convincing our creditors that what we owe them is not the same as what they think we owe them.. in fact if they would just listen very carefully they would realise that we owe them nothing at all. Further, if they really want to have a good time, just like us, then they would be much better off letting us run their affairs for them.

Many countries took us up on this kind offer, first there was Libya, then Iran, then Vietnam, then Afghanistan, recently Iraq. As well, we knocked on many other doors and managed to get our foot in before they slammed shut. Vietnam was the only one with any sense, they called us a bully, gave us a thrashing of such magnitude that we will never be able to forget, nor will we ever be game to go near them again. They may have only been little but they turned out to be much bigger than us.

They decided they were better off without our help ... and they were right!!!

The crime rate is right on par given the current situation .... When events threaten a society's lifestyle then that society goes to war. When events threaten an individual's lifestyle then the individual resorts to crime.

Until we learn to share, and we will probably have to be taught this forcibly, than serial killers and terrorists will abound. In a few years Western Society will no longer control the majority of resources, riches, armed forces, technologies, nor the ability to dominate ... there are bigger and better players on the horizon. In Australia, we are weaker, and therefore more adaptable to this new mindset. We are learning our lesson already. My advice to you is to start taking this idea on board right now ... get used to it ... its a much closer reality than you think ... this is a message from the front.

Apart from this we like the Chinese and the Indians .... their food is great, their philosophy produces a low crime rate, and they give us lots of high paid work. They are very environmentally friendly, they happily hive together in little apartments whereas I have to destroy a forest to get the timber and space I require for my house. They are our (Australia's) new employers. They are not very good at aggressive driving on the roads and highways, but they are very nice people when you get to know them ... In fact I'm feeling a little inferior. Perhaps I always have been.

Where is the puzzle ? please post an opinion rather than a link ....

cool bananas ... greg

Dear Greg:
The provided link patently makes the case for an increasing violent crime rate.

You question the meaning and import of the information authenticated in that link.

That is to say, you parallel the element of denial that is in point here.

Moreover, you state:
"You seem to be of the opinion that if crime increases then the responsible bodies, Police, Justice Dept, Governments etc are directly responsible."

Anyone familiar with my books and essays on destructive human agression (which are posted in my ToeQuest blog, which also links readers to my other books and essays on this subject) knows that I hold the 'corporate state' ('Media monopoly', 'entertainment industry' - and the contingencies of 'the drug war') responsible for most of the violence in this country

You seem to have transitioned the discussion from its point of focus (the violent crime rate is increasing), into the international arena of comparative cultural standards and socio-political dynamics, which do indeed prove the United States to be rapidly waning - as a world leader - on all economic and ethical fronts.

(I couldn't agree with you more that Vietnam, for example, righteously whupped our caboose, and the cabooses of our allies - including Australia - also. I personally, publicly and repeatedly protested against the Vietnam War when I returned from the Bay of Pigs. China tried to take Vietnam and failed. Genghis Khan tried to take Vietnam and failed. Japan tried to take Vietnam and failed. France Tried to take Vietnam and failed. Of course the United States, S. Korea and Australia tried to take Vietnam and failed, miserably and shamefully... I am adamently opposed to the all too familiar foddering of our young soldiers in the all too familiar vanity of the Iraq war ,<'It's about oil, stupid'.>)

You close your post with the question, 'Where is the puzzle?'

The 'puzzle' is in the denial of the problem at issue - the pandemically growing crime rate... the real problem confirmed via the provided link that you brush off at the beginning of your post (as replicated above).

The growing violent crime is primarily promulgated by the media-monopoly effected by the offending arms of the U.S. Corporate State (Petroleum, steel, rubber, plastics, weapons, chemical and other major industries <'Make 7! Up yours!'>), augmented by the entanglement of law enforcement and judiciary elements relating to the so called 'drug war', accompanied by the commonplace denial that the crime rate is increasing...

(Refer, 'No real problem will be resolved when it is accompanied by a policy of denial <refer, 'gridlock>' - K. B. Robertson, NOMADS, CIVILIZATION & WAR.)

Best regards to you, Greg, and Kewel Kukumbers,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Dear Greg:
The provided link patently makes the case for an increasing violent crime rate.

Your very first post, very first link, makes the following statement

"Official statistics said that in 1993 there were about two million violent crimes reported to authorities. But based upon victims reports, the commission estimated that there were actually 11 million violent crimes committed in 1993."

This was in 1993, 15 years ago. 2 million violent crimes ..... During prohibition my guess is that it was higher. Its probably lower today .... I have no figures on it.

You question the meaning and import of the information authenticated in that link. That is to say, you parallel the element of denial that is in point here.

Apart from the first link ... all your other links took me to other forums where you had posted your views. I don't have a problem with your views. We have already debated the same on this forum under different threads.

You seem to have transitioned the discussion from its point of focus (the violent crime rate is increasing), into the international arena of comparative cultural standards and socio-political dynamics, which do indeed prove the United States to be rapidly waning - as a world leader - on all economic and ethical fronts.

Yes ... I do seem to have done that don't I .... It wasn't deliberate ... I just got carried away by my own prose ..... rotflmao

But to be fair you claim that the violent crime rate is increasing but your links only refer to yankee crime .... not world crime.

You close your post with the question, 'Where is the puzzle?'

The 'puzzle' is in the denial of the problem at issue - the pandemically growing crime rate... the real problem confirmed via the provided link that you brush off at the beginning of your post (as replicated above).

The growing violent crime is primarily promulgated by the media-monopoly effected by the offending arms of the U.S. Corporate State (Petroleum, steel, rubber, plastics, weapons, chemical and other major industries <'Make 7! Up yours!'>), augmented by the entanglement of law enforcement and judiciary elements relating to the so called 'drug war', accompanied by the commonplace denial that the crime rate is increasing...

Listen ... I follow the 'Tour de France' ... Stay up late every nite, watching every stage thru till 02:00 am ..... stagger to bed ... get kicked by the better half for disturbing her repose. I have been following it since the early eighties. I am an addict/aficionado if you like to put it that way.

For the last 10 years (perhaps much longer) the Tour has had a serious, drug/doping problem. A majority of detected cases, but by no means all, or even close to all, have had an american connection in one form or another.

For all this time the war on drugs in the Tour has met with no success, merely playing a holding pattern, neither reducing, nor detectably increasing. This is a crime, a very serious crime, and its effects are much greater than can be elaborated on here, or as most people would suppose.

But for the last three years, really just the last two ..... a measurable, demonstrable, increasing degree of success has been achieved.

How ? Why ? How can you beat drugs, especially when the rewards for the dope cheats are so high, and team management supplies unlimited money so that detection can be evaded.

It was easy, and it wasn't even done on purpose, or even considered as a weapon.

Sponsors realised the economic impact on their own products, if their sponsored team was detected. Immediately sponsorship was removed. All sponsors, in the main, have fallen in line. It has become an economic necessity.

This in turn, by removing the cash cow, has caused team management to reconsider its involvement, and to even oust cheats from within the team immediately, before they are officially detected, for fear of losing their cash cow, the sponsor.

The drug problem has been solved, in the least expected way. Of course this is a great simplification of all that went on ... but in the main ...

So you see, this example shows that the crime rate is hitched to the accessibility of scarce resources, and is a secondary phenomena. Team management and the riders are no better than they have ever been, but now they are doing the right thing because it is less expensive than doing the wrong.

So I am of the opinion that crime should be fought on multiple fronts and not just reacted to when it is seen to increase. The increase may contain an underlying undetected bias.


cool bananas old friend ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Hey Dear Greg...
The drug problems of the Tour de France is hardly a yardstick of the international drug war, which is being lost, miserably (to the internationally established drug cartels - a multi billion dollar tax free - annual - industry. Colombia was owned for a decade by a drug fiend who bought the gvt and the army before he was finally terminated...).

France was in SouEast Asia acquiring massive quantities of heroin from the Golden Triangle and distributing it to the world (refer, The French Connection).

Lemme cogitate the other segments of yer multi-faceted post.

Kewel Kukumbers,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Hey Dear Greg...
The drug problems of the Tour de France is hardly a yardstick of the international drug war
Kewel Kukumbers,
- RP

Of course your right ... but I never meant it to be a yardstick, just an example. It is a serious problem for other reasons ...The Tour De France is a huge multi million dollar industry, upon which hundreds of thousands of peoples economic livelihoods depend. The whole operation was being threatened by drugs ... sponsors were leaving, attendance and viewing were down ... it not that it is only sport, it is part of the economic fabric. It is a big part of my life and I look forward to it every year.

The point was to show that an answer to the problem came, to use a yankee term, from left field.

Do you think that if the people in Colombia were happily employed and well paid the problem would exist ? Colombia is a result of a disease called 'colonial rule' followed up by a medicine called 'missionaries'. The two political parties that resulted from this were, and still are, bitter and violent enemies.

How would you fare as a patient treated like this. The problem is our problem, not theirs, they just suffer from it.

cool bananas ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Dear Greg and Dear Hearts:
Regarding the causes, effects and possible remedies for criminal violence -
Hope you read these sites...

http://www.media-awareness.ca/englis...ertainment.cfm

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ustry+violence

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...nment+industry

The Seville Statement
"At a meeting (in Spain) at Seville University in 1986, a majority of those present issued a statement, modeled on the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization's Statement on Race, condemning belief in man's violent nature in absolute terms.

The Seville Statement contains five articles, each beginning 'It Is scientifically Incorrect'. The articles together amount to a condemnation of all characterisations of man as naturally violent. In succession they deny that 'we have inherited a tendency to make war from our animal ancestors' or that 'war or any other violent behavior is genetically programmed into our human nature', or that 'in the course of human evolution there has been a selection for aggressive behavior more than for other kinds of behavior' or that 'humans have a "violent brain", or, finally, that ‘war is caused by "instinct", or any single motivation'.
- John Keegan, A HISTORY OF WARFARE, p.p. 79-81

Bibliography

THE ART OF WAR - Sun Tzu
ON WAR - Karl Von Clauzewitz

ON AGGRESSION - Konrad Lorenz

ON KILLING - Lt. Col. Grossman

ON VIOLENCE: The Code Of Denial & Silence;
The Normalization Of Betrayals Of Oaths Of Public Office
- K.B. Robertson

THE ANATOMY OF HUMAN DESTRUCTIVENESS - Eric Fromm

AN INTIMATE HISTORY OF KILLING:
Face To Face Killing In The 20th Century
- Joanna Bourke

THE BATTLE FOR HISTORY - John Keegan

THE ABUSE OF POWER - Theodore Draper

TO END WAR - R. Pickus & R. Woito

THE RIDE OF THE SECOND HORSEMAN - R. L. O’Connell

A HISTORY OF WARFARE - John Keegan

DUPLICITY, INTRIGUE, BRUTE FORCE & INTIMIDATION:
The Male Sexist Oracle. The American Way - K.B. Robertson

WOMEN IN WAR - Shelly Saywell
THE CAUSES & PREVENTION OF WAR - Brown

THE DECLINE & FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE - Edward Gibbon

THE FIRST CASUALTY - Phillip Knightly
(‘In times of war, truth is the first casualty’. - Sen. H. Johnson, 1917)

THE MASK OF COMMAND - John Keegan

THE RISE & FALL OF GREAT POWERS - Paul Kennedy

THE OUTLINE OF HISTORY - H.G. Wells

GENGHIS KHAN - Harold Lamb

THE EARTH IS THE LORD’S - Taylor Caldwell

POLAND - James Michener

The I CHING - author(s) unknown.

THE KORAN - Muhammed
The TORAH & TALMUD - author(s) unknown
The BAGHADVAD GITA - author(s) unknown

THE ROYAL HORDES - E.D. Phillips

HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS - Bertold Spuler

VIOLENCE & CRIME: In Cross National Perspective
- Archer and Gartner

THE GOOD WAR - Studs Terkel

THE DIALECTIC CYCLE - Cyclic Pendulum - OF HISTORY - Friedrich Hegel

THE PELOPONNESIAN WARS
The Self Destruction Of The Greek State By Civil Wars - Herodotus (& standard references.)

DESCRIPTIONS OF THE NEW WORLD: The Travels Of Marco Polo
- Marco Polo, translated by William Marsden

THE VOYAGE OF THE BEAGLE - Charles Darwin

THE COMPETITIVE IMPERATIVE - K.B. Robertson

ANTI VIOLENCE STATEMENTS: Suppression Of Great Minds - Albert Einstein

THE HISTORY OF THE MINOANS - Standard reference sources

SOLDIERS - John Keegan

THE POLITICS OF EXPERIENCE - R.D. Laing

THE YASA - Genghis Khan (As translated by Rashid al Din.)

THE DISCOVERERS - Daniel J. Boorstin

THE DESCENT OF WOMAN - Elaine Morgan

THE ASCENT OF MAN - J. Bronowski
THE NAKED APE - Desmond Morris

OUR ORIENTAL HERITAGE - Will Durant

THE LOOM OF LANGUAGE - Frederick Bodmer

THE SOURCE - James Michener

THE CIVIL WAR - National Geographic

POLITICAL TERRORISM - Grant Wardlaw

NUEROLINGUSTIC PROGRAMMING - Richard W. Bandler

OPERANT CONDITIONING, BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION
& (so called) PSYCHOMOLECULAR RESTRUCTURING
- Standard informational resources

WORLD WAR II - John Keegan

CIVILIZATION & ITS DISCONTENTS - Sigmund Freud

THE TERRITORIAL IMPERATIVE - Robert Ardrey

AMUSING OURSELVES TO DEATH - Neil Postman

RUNNING FROM SAFETY - Richard Bach

EXTRAORDINARY POPULAR DELUSIONS AND THE MADNESS OF CROWDS
- Mackay

THE ART OF MISSING THE POINT: When You Can’t Afford To Catch On
- K.B. Robertson

“*GEORGE ORWELL’S (1984) PREDICTIONS ARE RIDICULOUS.”
- *Time / Life Publishers (*1/1/’84 Feature Article)

BRUTE FORCE, THE MALE SEXIST ORACLE: The American Way
- K.B. Robertson

WINNING THROUGH INTIMIDATION - Ringer
THE UNDECLARED WAR AGAINST AMERICAN WOMEN - Susan Faludi

A MOVEABLE VIETNAM: A Continental Misunderstanding - K.B. Robertson
THE ART OF BEING - Fromm
THE SANE SOCIETY- Fromm
ON BEING HUMAN - Fromm
EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE - Goleman

TRANSFORMING A RAPE CULTURE - Buchwald, Fletcher & Roth

CONSPIRACIES, COVER-UPS & CRIMES:
Political Manipulation & Mind Control In America - J. Vankin

THE ART OF LOVING - Fromm
THE CONQUEST OF HAPPINESS - Bertrand Russell
THE UNREALITY INDUSTRY
The Deliberate Manufacturing Of Falsehoods And What It Is Doing To Our Lives
- Mitroff & Bennis

HOW REAL IS REAL?
Confusion, Disinformation & Communication- Watzlawick
“...let us go down and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” - Genesis 11:7 (Refer, 1984 <NewSpeak & DoubleThink> by George Orwell)

25 YEARS OF CENSORED NEWS - P. Phillips

AGAINST OUR WILL: Men, Women & Rape - Susan Brownmiller

BATTERED & BULLIED WOMEN MAKE BETTER PANCAKES & BURGERS
- K.B. Robertson

ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM - Fromm

THE UNDISCOVERED SELF - Jung

THE INVISIBLE (‘What?’) WAR: A War Of Perception
K.B. Robertson

THE CONQUEST OF THE UNITED STATES
- K.B. Robertson
WHY KAREN SILKWOOD WAS MURDERED - Author unknown

MEMORIES, DREAMS & REFLECTIONS - Jung
MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS - Jung

MAN FOR HIMSELF - Fromm

THE ARCHTYPES & THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS - Jung

WAR and ANTI-WAR: Survival At The Dawn Of The 21st Century
Alvin and Heidi Tofler (Authors of FUTURE SHOCK and THE THIRD WAVE)

[Mikal]

Of course your right ... but I never meant it to be a yardstick, just an example. It is a serious problem for other reasons ...The Tour De France is a huge multi million dollar industry, upon which hundreds of thousands of peoples economic livelihoods depend. The whole operation was being threatened by drugs ... sponsors were leaving, attendance and viewing were down ... it not that it is only sport, it is part of the economic fabric. It is a big part of my life and I look forward to it every year.

The point was to show that an answer to the problem came, to use a yankee term, from left field.

Do you think that if the people in Colombia were happily employed and well paid the problem would exist ? Colombia is a result of a disease called 'colonial rule' followed up by a medicine called 'missionaries'. The two political parties that resulted from this were, and still are, bitter and violent enemies.

How would you fare as a patient treated like this. The problem is our problem, not theirs, they just suffer from it.

cool bananas ... greg

Greg....I agree with you, "colonial rule" is like a disease which is the colonizer's disease and the colonized becomes to suffer from it. The action to colonize is like the action to culture....there is an oppressor and the oppressed, there is the dominator and the dominated, there is the superior and the inferior....

Quote:

"The very structure of the oppressed's thought has been conditioned by the contradictions of the concrete, existential situations by which the oppressor shapes and molds them."

Paulo Freire, Professor of The History and Philosophy of Education.


Mikal