[SinJin]

It seems that the only way to reverse entropy is to introduce an outside energy. But then I thought about a bicycle, and how it's efficiency seems to reduce entropy, reverse the entropic arrow. I mean the amount of work it took to think up the idea of a bicycle and the man power needed to build one is surely made up for the total energy a bike saves when you ride it. Is this correct? And if so, does it prove consciousness can reverse entropy? Does consciousness tap into some sort of outside energy?

On a related note, perhaps the bike only reverse entropy when you are coasting, in which case gravity would be the outside energy reversing entropy. If so, it would seem like gravity would be an infinite energy source, since it can't run out!

[Guille]

Conciousness (the mind, speaking broadly) is composed of psyquical events, whiles the universe (the cosmos, speaking broadly) is composed of physical events. Any rule underlying physical events does not apply to psyquical events, and vice versa. The increase of entropy (disorder) is rule for physical events. That is why consciousness can be in contradiction with the law of increase of entropy; that it isn't a psyquical rule. That is why if you take consciousness into account in the case of the bycicle, the rule of entropy will be broken for you are know in the realm of the psyquical-physical events scheme.

[mkirkpatrick]

Sinjin,many thanks for your thread starter,imagine if you could go down hill
forever,then a bike,would be an effortless wonderful way to explore the planet.But alas there are hills,blast!I like the idea of introducing an "outside"
energy,but where on "earth"would that come from?As I see energy as a universal constant.It would indeed be much easier to assemble a bike,that say a,photon torpedo!


kind regards michael.

[harmonygirl]

Sinjin, I am not sure a bike 'saves' energy. I like this thread, I suspect I will understand entropy a little better for having viewed it. Another question: is entropy linked to the definition of the system of energy (if not, how can you go outside the system)?

[SinJin]

Originally Posted by harmonygirl Sinjin, I am not sure a bike 'saves' energy. I like this thread, I suspect I will understand entropy a little better for having viewed it. Another question: is entropy linked to the definition of the system of energy (if not, how can you go outside the system)?

I think entropy is linked to the energy in a system when that system is closed. For instance, I think a classic example is a can of soda. When you open it and it fizzes, gas is released that spreads out and disperses into the air, becoming both disordered and useless, and therefore the entropy of the closed system (which only includes the can of soda and the air) has increased. To introduce an outside energy source would be to bring in some sort of machine that can collect all the dispersed gas molecules, gather them up, and put them back into the can, converting them into something useful and organized and reversing entropy. I think for most things in the universe there can always be an "outside" force, for example the sun providing energy and organization to life, but the universe as a whole is a closed system and any outside force would be outside the the universe.

[SinJin]

Originally Posted by Guille Conciousness (the mind, speaking broadly) is composed of psyquical events, whiles the universe (the cosmos, speaking broadly) is composed of physical events. Any rule underlying physical events does not apply to psyquical events, and vice versa. The increase of entropy (disorder) is rule for physical events. That is why consciousness can be in contradiction with the law of increase of entropy; that it isn't a psyquical rule. That is why if you take consciousness into account in the case of the bycicle, the rule of entropy will be broken for you are know in the realm of the psyquical-physical events scheme.

Not if you consider consciousness to be nothing other than a collection of very complex physical interactions. In that case, you are never leaving the realm of physics. On an atomic level the same forces that make up your consciousness would also make up the bike, and so there would be no real difference. So now the use of energy to think up a bike is very little, and the energy saved when riding a bike compared to, say, walking the same distance is very great. So where is the net increase in useless energy released, as the second law of thermodynamics dictates?