[Guille]

Originally Posted by AntonioLao

You mean the bright side? There is no dark side of the moon except the side we can't see because of synchronized rotation.

That’s the one; it is always referred to as dark by astronomers as we can't see it. But of course it always receives light from the sun. This is the mystery of life: there is more light in the darkest unknown places.

[baudrunner]

Continuing our discussion...

Speaking of oxygen, the porphyrin molecule is the all important mediator in the respiration cycle. It is shown below. These are the backbone of the carriers of oxygen and carbon dioxide to/from the cells, which direction depending on whether you are plant or animal. It is found as the nucleus in both the chlorophyll and hemoglobin molecule.

The only difference is in the metal ion at the centre of the porphyrin nucleus. If it is iron, then you are animal and your blood is red. If it is magnesium, thenyou are plant, and you are green.

(Antonio, I can't tell you any more. The photograph is from my private archives. Only a few select people know.)

[AntonioLao]

Originally Posted by baudrunner

the porphyrin molecule is the all important mediator in the respiration cycle

Thanks for this image. I notice the alternating hexagonal and pentagonal structures surrounding the central quadrangle. Looks very interesting.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by AntonioLao

Thanks for this image. I notice the alternating hexagonal and pentagonal structures surrounding the central quadrangle. Looks very interesting.

Another thing to note is that there is a correspondent hexagon for each quarter of the quadrangle, and a correspondent pentagon within the ends of each two hexagons. For this, each pentagon has a sphere of the central structure; whiles each hexagon is correspondent to the spaces between these spheres..

[baudrunner]

The Porphyrin molecule doesn't just hang around. It is dynamic. It vibrates! All that spin and angular momentum gets trapped when atoms form into molecules and resonant oscillation is the result. Metaphors abound in nature.

[Marko]

Originally Posted by <<>>

It would be great to have a super advanced laboratory where we could try to make different kind of lives. Not only being able to control the conditions so that we can determine a species' evolution, but also the genetics and biological start: like taking out phosphorus or another fundamental element. Taking away oxygen would be the most interesting as it would mean the whole system to change.

I know that most drastic speculations about how life could begin include silicon instead of carbon as a base, and ammonia instead of water as a solvent.
However, most observations of the cosmic material and experiments reduced the possibility of some complex organism based on silicon and ammonia, but some simple chemistry; some strange forms of molecules on the boundary between non-organic and organic could be possible.
What you had in mind?

[Guille]

Originally Posted by Marko

I know that most drastic speculations about how life could begin include silicon instead of carbon as a base, and ammonia instead of water as a solvent.
However, most observations of the cosmic material and experiments reduced the possibility of some complex organism based on silicon and ammonia, but some simple chemistry; some strange forms of molecules on the boundary between non-organic and organic could be possible.
What you had in mind?

I had in mind a theory about explaining the appearance of thought in matter. That is why research such as making life without the same components would be important. Because everyone says that if beings achieve a point of complexity, then automatically they start having intelligence and minds, whiles I believe that it's relative, that our minds don't come from our complexity, but that it comes from the point that is marked by our composition. That is, if there is another composition, then the complexity level is different.

[Marko]

Originally Posted by <<>>

I had in mind a theory about explaining the appearance of thought in matter. That is why research such as making life without the same components would be important. Because everyone says that if beings achieve a point of complexity, then automatically they start having intelligence and minds, whiles I believe that it's relative, that our minds don't come from our complexity, but that it comes from the point that is marked by our composition. That is, if there is another composition, then the complexity level is different.

Guille, I totally agree with you!
Of course that composition is the crucial factor!
For example - composition of our DNA continued with the unique structure of our cerebral cortex and Broca"s region.
I also think that high complexity doesn’t necessary mean self aware, to be more precise only in humans case this works. I am discussing this with Mr.Nobody in the thread "who is your god (or not)".
This factor (composition) is one of the biggest obstacles for computers to become self aware (Mr. Nobody"s theory is that they will become self aware).
This exact composition is what prevent other forms of matter/energy to become self aware even if they are far more organized, complex then we are.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by Marko

Guille, I totally agree with you!
Of course that composition is the crucial factor!
For example - composition of our DNA continued with the unique structure of our cerebral cortex and Broca"s region.
I also think that high complexity doesn’t necessary mean self aware, to be more precise only in humans case this works. I am discussing this with Mr.Nobody in the thread "who is your god (or not)".
This factor (composition) is one of the biggest obstacles for computers to become self aware (Mr. Nobody"s theory is that they will become self aware).
This exact composition is what prevent other forms of matter/energy to become self aware even if they are far more organized, complex then we are.

Well, I agree with your theory. Actually I have been reading the discussion between you two. In fact, not only that complexity doesn't imply self-awareness, but also that having a mind, the ability to decide and to know and having intelligence and consciousness, also doesn't imply self.-awareness. There is a forum "philosophy of mind" where you could start a thread if you want.

[Marko]

Originally Posted by AntonioLao

Why the genetic code is composed of only 4 bases? Not 5 or 6 or more? Or even less? Is it because that the number 4 is the first non prime even number useful for pairing? More mysteriously, these bases can only pair exclusively with one another. A - Always with T, and C - always with G. Why nature always chooses opposite pairs for stability and equilibrium? Negative electrons orbit positive nuclei, stable diatomic molecules, noble gases, binary stars, etc.

Hi Antonio!

I think that all this happens somewhere. Our particular evolution was with 4 bases, with the stability and equilibrium. That is the evolution that managed to produce us, humans, to ask such questions.
But there is no reason to think that this is the only way. What we can say is that this is probably the only way to humans, this is maybe a super- evolution.

I will try to explain this from the cosmology perspective.
My assumption is that universe is governed by randomness and has the ability to oscillate, either via Multi-verse or only-one universe scenario.
Here, every event has some degree of probability. The point is, in this pure randomness, everything that can happen eventually will - thanks to the oscillations.
So, life itself and its evolution are like a "little universe".
Imagine primordial Earth, and the first amino acids which were continued by the proteins synthesis. I think that there was a lot of other proteins and amino acids, but none of them were successful.
I think it was necessary at least 10¹º primordial Earth replicas by the probability, to produce some "meaningful proteins".

I think that this works with the evolution of plants and animals- in some cases, one sex can vanish; terrible mutations are possible which lead to the mass extinctions, heavy instinct disturbances...etc.
Note that this is happening on Earth too, but on much smaller scale. In reptiles, there are few species which consist only of females. We can artificial disturb a birds instincts based on the Earth magnetic field - if we disturb this ratio, bird will fly on north, or where we want, instead of south. Sometimes this happens in nature by chance, this "disturbances".

So, in my opinion, there are worlds with this "bad evolutions", well I think that in most cases evolutions are "bad" , they end up in the blind road, there is no complex life and eventually humans. So, the possibilities are from silicon as a base and ammonia as a solvent to the small corrections and changes in our set-up. Only question is: how far can these other evolutions go? What can they produce?
Maybe the next generation of telescopes (they should be able to detect Earth-like planets around other stars that are close to us) tell us something about this possibilities.

Best wishes
Marko