The beginning of consciousness

[Guille]

Indeed, I think this middle point existed. Still there are few puzzles: there would be very interesting to know something about the relations of these two sub-groups (Homo sapiens sapiens and Neanderthal). Also, the big mystery is how Neanderthal vanished from the face of Earth. They had bigger brains, they were stronger then we were, but they are gone. This is a hard work for the scientists because there is not enough evidence at the moment about migrations and life of both sub-groups.

The most important events in human history have always been related to the brain. So I do suggest it is that. Maybe theirs was bigger, but the important thing is not quantity but quality. And the structures and properties of our brain are different to that of Neanderthals’. I know they had much more parietal lobe, which is related to senses, perception, and movement (sending signals to the rest of the body nerves). This is a more primitive intelligence. We, on the other hand, have bigger temporal lobe and frontal lobe, which serve us in critical thought, high consciousness and logical work (math, philosophy, science...).

[Marko]

The most important events in human history have always been related to the brain. So I do suggest it is that. Maybe theirs was bigger, but the important thing is not quantity but quality. And the structures and properties of our brain are different to that of Neanderthals’. I know they had much more parietal lobe, which is related to senses, perception, and movement (sending signals to the rest of the body nerves). This is a more primitive intelligence. We, on the other hand, have bigger temporal lobe and frontal lobe, which serve us in critical thought, high consciousness and logical work (math, philosophy, science...).

Yes, it looks like the Neanderthals were the „blind road“of evolution. Still it would be great if we could find out more things about interactions between these two sub-groups, were these interactions hostile only or there was some trace of friendly relations?
Annihilation of the Neanderthal is a result of their „primitive intelligence“, as time passed they were unable to operate in environment, but what is the role of Homo sapiens sapiens in that event (if any)?

[Guille]

Yes, it looks like the Neanderthals were the „blind road“of evolution. Still it would be great if we could find out more things about interactions between these two sub-groups, were these interactions hostile only or there was some trace of friendly relations?
Annihilation of the Neanderthal is a result of their „primitive intelligence“, as time passed they were unable to operate in environment, but what is the role of Homo sapiens sapiens in that event (if any)?

To understand if the species interacted or related, I have an interesting (maybe wrong, but at least interesting) theory.

We humans think of dogs as our best friends. And indeed they are. They do everything we order them, they remember us, the love us, in their way... Why is a relation with a dog so pleasurable? Well, my sociological-psychological study of people I know that have strong relations to dogs, have the following generalized properties: They are lonely, or have a small family, or their brothers-sisters are of very different age, or they are not married, or they have not very good social skills. And, most specially, they all hate one or more properties that many human beings have those animals such as dogs don't have. For example, interrupting, or imposing opinions, or talking bad about things, or correcting others... Are the most common. Well, dogs don't do any of these things, as all animals, but the special about dogs is that they all cover the ideal properties that we, all humans, would like to see in a person: sincere, faithful, courageous, helpful...

And yet there is an animal which doesn't have any of these, and in fact has some human properties: cats (domestic and wild). They are egocentric, hateful, show off... Just like humans. And we, as we are the species that has arrived to the highest point of evolution, of all, have in our sub-consciousness that we should be unique in all our common properties. But as cats have many of them, then we intuitionally, intuitively, feel anger, hate, and even jealous... This is all without being aware ourselves.

So I think that if cats are so similar to us in the psychological-behavioral-qualitative aspect, we should study them. So imagine, we, Homo sapiens sapiens are cheetahs, and the Neanderthals are leopards, or we are lions and they are tigers. I give these two examples because cheetahs are as better running to leopards than we are thinking to Neanderthals, and lions are as better fighting to tigers as we are of creating to nearnerthelsis.

Please tell me profoundly what you think about this theory; I really want to know where it can take us into understanding why we are here.

[Marko]

Dear GUILLE,

What you wrote was very intriguing, especially when you were doing a dog and lions and tiger example. It could be used to describe relations between H.s. sapiens and Neanderthal, but what I really find is that the core of this theory could be used to give us some answers on more complex questions.
Here is what I think: You were right when you said that we, humans are looking for some ideal properties in animals. This sentence, believe it or not, has a much deeper meaning. For the reasonable explanation of this, I will need a lot of paper! In the end, I think I will give you my explanation of interactions between H.s. sapiens and Neanderthal, but somehow my intention is to go step further.

We compare them (animals) to us. We love them, they makes us laugh, when we are lonely, they are there. But if we want to hear the truth, it is a one way road. We are thinking instead of them, feeling instead of them, hearing instead of them. All this is through our ability of „real existence“. During my high school education, I talked a lot to other people since I tried to understand why somebody is very cruel, somebody very religious etc...Well, most of the time I listened carefully what they were saying, and the often subject was the position of the humans in the universe, and comparisons with the animals. Most of them were desperately trying to understand how it feels to be an animal or plant. Then I would tell them a story about deserted island. You, ape, cat, snail, apple tree, germs and computer are on the deserted island. You exist since you possess „real existence“and all other beings exist through your interpretation of them, and that interpretation is created in your head (mind). If we remove you from that island and we erase your memory there will be no existence, since your companions from the island doesn’t possess ability of „real existence“and you, the only witness, don’t have this interpretation in your head anymore. Of course they would be where they were-on the island, but tell me, where is their existence without any witness, observer? Hence, I can state ape=cat=snail=apple tree=germs=computer=photons=quantum vacuum – if we are looking in terms of „I think therefore I am“. I should paraphrase it and say „I think, feel, see, hear things, I can enjoy the sunset, ice-cream, cigarette, sex, I am aware of my past, of the fact that I will die – therefore I am“. This is „real existence scale“-humans versus the rest. If we want to imagine how some animal heard or saw something, think of a radar, computer and how they are „thinking, hearing and seeing things”, and „who are they“? I am exposing all this since I want to point out how important and unique „real existence“ is, and all this by natural way without the interference of God, and with the respect to all known natural laws, by series of cosmic and evolutionary accidents. Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to underestimate other living beings and other biological and non-biological structures. But in a way, we are privileged by series of accidents. IN A WAY, we, HUMANS, are „EVERYTHING“ and the rest of the universe is NOTHING. Of course I know we are made from the organic matter, molecules, atoms, and we have to say thanks to that „NOTHING“ because without that „NOTHING“ we wouldn’t be here discussing this topic!
But if we look through our „real existence“ through our subjective interpretation, then indeed we can grade them as we like, somebody will favor the ape, somebody apple tree, computer.


I call this „the subjective real existence scale“.


Now I am closing this chapter and I am going a step further.


You were right when you noticed that we were better thinkers and creators than Neanderthals. And the real explanation is in the development of the „real existence consciousness“ and we can follow this development through the „levels of real existence consciousness“. Here evolutionary chaos ends, but evolution is still here, just in a more subtle, sophisticated and gentle manner. Note that I don’t mean that one level is better than other, more valuable or more important. They all have very important role in the healthy development of a human being. As a matter of fact, every baby starts from the 1.level, no matter, were the rest of the society. We all came from 1.level, but where will we settle down, is up to us, at least today. What is the upper limit I don’t really know. What I can say is that this incredible sophisticated evolution is at work all the time from the „first to the last human (observer, witness, real existence) on the Earth“ Here are the basic levels, at least my interpretation:

1. Level – hunger, sex, other basic needs, warmth...etc. – very first Homo sapiens (sapiens + Neanderthal), first in possession of „real existence“. In their lives instincts and intuition are dominating, with some chance of more gentle thoughts and of some chance to get on the next level. This state of dominating intuition and instincts is also unique for Homo sapiens (sapiens + Neanderthal) – If you were reading first part of my theory, then you know on what I am pointing (real existence =Homo sapiens, animals and their instincts can be deducted to NOTHING – last lines of my first part).
2.level- totems, magic, ethnical tribes, wodoo stuff, „evil spirits“ - today some poor tribes in Africa, but 50-80 thousand years ago dominant force on Earth.
Finally explanation:
While Neanderthals were desperately struggling on the 1. level, some H.s. sapienses were able to go step further and after some time most of the H.s. sapienses were on the 2.level, and this is the reason how they adapted better in the environment, while Neanderthals were struggling with their „real existence level 1“. Maybe some individuals from Neanderthal species got to the 2.level, but there wasn’t critical number of Neanderthals on the 2.level, so evolution + environment : Neanderthal 1:0 !!
On the other hand, our species had that critical number of people in the 2.level, hence H.s. sapiens : evolution + environment : 1:0 !!!

3. Level – egocentrism, violent tribes, „ destroyers of the Rome“ , only power and glory, revenge.

4. Level - myths, acceptance of „narrow religion“, to be one sheep in the flock, system of awards and punishments – literal interpretation of Bible, Tora, Koran, etc. (Christianity, Islam), heaven and hell, nationalism.

5. Level – purely scientific, trying to terminate religion and all that what came with it. “Physics is God, I don’t need anything else to solve all the problems in the world“– is their slogan. They were right when they terminated „narrow religion“, flock effect, myths, but with 99 % of the trash, they terminated something EXTREMLY VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT – HIGH SPIRITUALITY (high philosophy=+high ecology+......)


6. Level - ecology, human rights, animal rights, partial integration of science and high spirituality, democracy, developed but still in the fog, a lot of brilliant ideas but still without the hole picture.

7. Level - integration of “best of the science” with the „best of the spirituality ( high philosophy + high ecology + ...) , possible partial answer to the TOE. TOE should be based on laws on nature but with the respect to our “real existence” and “HIGH SPIRITUALITY” (only individuals possess this high spirituality, not entire H.s.s.) as a product of „real existence“.
8. level – „integration of all integrations“ , at this stage possible answer to the TOE., most of the time deep meditation, not sure, highly speculative, maybe only theoretical ????

I think that most of the people today (above 60%) would range from 3.level – 4. level.

I had a lot of thoughts about the universe, but I think it is better to leave this for another post!
I am completely aware that this theory needs to me upgraded, this is only a core!!!
GUILLE, I would like you to carefully examine my theory, I would like detailed critics, suggestions, everything...... it can do only some good!!!!!!

P.S. I apologize for some possible spelling errors!

Regards!
Marko

[Guille]

This is a big thing, and covers so man themes that one has to carefully study it. Here I give you my comments; I hope they are useful or helpful somehow. By the way, my whole name is actually Guillermo, but I like being called the short Guille. My name is the Spanish for William (So Guille is like Will or Bill).

What you wrote was very intriguing, especially when you were doing a dog and lions and tiger example. It could be used to describe relations between H.s. sapiens and Neanderthal, but what I really find is that the core of this theory could be used to give us some answers on more complex questions.

That’s what I hoped. If everyman that has made a theory really thought it would stay to what he states, he would not have developed it. Being confidence of further use and meaning is the basis of all scientific and philosophic enquiries.

We compare them (animals) to us. We love them, they makes us laugh, when we are lonely, they are there. But if we want to hear the truth, it is a one way road. We are thinking instead of them, feeling instead of them, hearing instead of them. All this is through our ability of „real existence“. During my high school education, I talked a lot to other people since I tried to understand why somebody is very cruel, somebody very religious etc...Well, most of the time I listened carefully what they were saying, and the often subject was the position of the humans in the universe, and comparisons with the animals. Most of them were desperately trying to understand how it feels to be an animal or plant. Then I would tell them a story about deserted island. You, ape, cat, snail, apple tree, germs and computer are on the deserted island. You exist since you possess „real existence“and all other beings exist through your interpretation of them, and that interpretation is created in your head (mind).

I agree. I had already used the technique of animal placing in situations to understand people. It is one of my mane intrigues. I’m a high school student now (if you didn’t notice)!

If we remove you from that island and we erase your memory there will be no existence, since your companions from the island doesn’t possess ability of „real existence“and you, the only witness, don’t have this interpretation in your head anymore. Of course they would be where they were-on the island, but tell me, where is their existence without any witness, observer?

Ok. Your theory is definitely a theory of Personal Identity. This is a mayor problem in philosophy, and has been discussed from Thales, Socrates and Plato, passing by Descartes, Locke, Leibniz, all the way to Nietzsche, Quine and Sartre. Yours is a mixture of the substance theory with the memory theory. Basically, to sum up: substance theory is, which states that a person is what he is because it is his true being, and this is a body-mind duality. And memory theory is that one is what one remembers. So if I remember being in the war of Vietnam, so I was a soldier in Vietnam, and if I don’t remember living in France, I didn’t live in France. Of course, both theories fail in several grounds, but maybe if you develop your combination of them more, and argument it, it could become the first acceptable theory of identity I ever read (and I’ve read many).

Hence, I can state ape=cat=snail=apple tree=germs=computer=photons=quantum vacuum – if we are looking in terms of „I think therefore I am“. I should paraphrase it and say „I think, feel, see, hear things, I can enjoy the sunset, ice-cream, cigarette, sex, I am aware of my past, of the fact that I will die – therefore I am“. This is „real existence scale“-humans versus the rest. If we want to imagine how some animal heard or saw something, think of a radar, computer and how they are „thinking, hearing and seeing things”, and „who are they“? I am exposing all this since I want to point out how important and unique „real existence“ is, and all this by natural way without the interference of God, and with the respect to all known natural laws, by series of cosmic and evolutionary accidents. Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to underestimate other living beings and other biological and non-biological structures. But in a way, we are privileged by series of accidents. IN A WAY, we, HUMANS, are „EVERYTHING“ and the rest of the universe is NOTHING. Of course I know we are made from the organic matter, molecules, atoms, and we have to say thanks to that „NOTHING“ because without that „NOTHING“ we wouldn’t be here discussing this topic!

In our particular humanity, the evolution has been like this: Greeks Romans “I love/hate therefore I am”, middle-ages “I pray therefore I am”, modern era “I fight therefore I am”, in the contemporary times since so-called democracy and “free” capitalism “I consume therefore I am”. Visionaries of centuries ago like Descartes, Kant, Montesquieu, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche… Knew that after the one they were starting, would come “I think therefore I am” and we are now, in 2005, in the very start of the end, in the intersection to “I think therefore I am”. The thing is that if visionaries knew at the start of the one now what comes next, we, at the start of this new one, if we are true visionaries, should be able of determining what will come after “I think therefore I am”. Definitely in each era what is the centre, what makes one “exist” in humanity, is caused by the conditions and necessities of people.
If now someone uses the term Burgess, that person is only made fun off now, just like I believe in a time, maybe 100 years, maybe 200 maximum, a person using the term intellectual to refer to some, will be made fun off.
There is, nevertheless, a failure in the interpretation of most people about the most famous of the phrase in philosophy. The statement doesn’t say what exists and what doesn’t, or how, or why, or where, or when… It only states that a mind can know and be sure that it is true that exists itself. Neither can a mind know that other minds exist. Nor can a mind know that its body exists. Nor can a mind know that other bodies exist. Just a mind can know that it exists itself as a mind. And that is not much at all… Anyway, there are many errors in Cartesian metaphysics, so we can’t rely on it enough.

But if we look through our „real existence“ through our subjective interpretation, then indeed we can grade them as we like, somebody will favor the ape, somebody apple tree, computer.
I call this „the subjective real existence scale“.

Only subjective things exist, for to exist isn’t itself subjective.

You were right when you noticed that we were better thinkers and creators than Neanderthals. And the real explanation is in the development of the „real existence consciousness“ and we can follow this development through the „levels of real existence consciousness“.

This is what I wanted to state. What makes humans and animals higher than any other thing is that we have a MIND as well as a BODY.

1. Level – hunger, sex, other basic needs, warmth...etc. – very first Homo sapiens (sapiens + Neanderthal), first in possession of „real existence“. In their lives instincts and intuition are dominating, with some chance of more gentle thoughts and of some chance to get on the next level. This state of dominating intuition and instincts is also unique for Homo sapiens (sapiens + Neanderthal) – If you were reading first part of my theory, then you know on what I am pointing (real existence =Homo sapiens, animals and their instincts can be deducted to NOTHING – last lines of my first part).

I agree… But I’m in this level. If I had to choose between sex and TOE, (maximum arts, maximum philosophy, maximum evolution…) I would stay with sex.

2.level- totems, magic, ethnical tribes, wodoo stuff, „evil spirits“ - today some poor tribes in Africa, but 50-80 thousand years ago dominant force on Earth.

Yes. The worse of this level is that it is the only one that is self-helpful: it fights against the possibility of rising higher. The other levels are hard, but don’t do things against you going up, whiles the magical ethnical ideas are always anti-evolution to higher points.

Finally explanation:
While Neanderthals were desperately struggling on the 1. level, some H.s. sapienses were able to go step further and after some time most of the H.s. sapienses were on the 2.level, and this is the reason how they adapted better in the environment, while Neanderthals were struggling with their „real existence level 1“. Maybe some individuals from Neanderthal species got to the 2.level, but there wasn’t critical number of Neanderthals on the 2.level, so evolution + environment : Neanderthal 1:0 !!
On the other hand, our species had that critical number of people in the 2.level, hence H.s. sapiens : evolution + environment : 1:0 !!!

Yes. Moreover, I believe that Hs sapiens that were in level 1 died and those in level 2 survived. Also the Neanderthals in level 2 survived, but not for a long time: when we started to develop level 2 to a higher point, and went onto starting level 3, they could fight the struggle and disappeared.

3. Level – egocentrism, violent tribes, „ destroyers of the Rome“ , only power and glory, revenge.

This is simply primitive, something that comes to us by animal instinct.
QUOTE=Marko]
4. Level - myths, acceptance of „narrow religion“, to be one sheep in the flock, system of awards and punishments – literal interpretation of Bible, Tora, Koran, etc. (Christianity, Islam), heaven and hell, nationalism.
5. Level – purely scientific, trying to terminate religion and all that what came with it. “Physics is God, I don’t need anything else to solve all the problems in the world“– is their slogan. They were right when they terminated „narrow religion“, flock effect, myths, but with 99 % of the trash, they terminated something EXTREMLY VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT – HIGH SPIRITUALITY (high philosophy=+high ecology+......)
[/QUOTE]
I also think that a purely scientific view of the world is down just above literal interpretations of religions and believing in Hercules.

6. Level - ecology, human rights, animal rights, partial integration of science and high spirituality, democracy, developed but still in the fog, a lot of brilliant ideas but still without the hole picture.

I have a lot of thoughts on this, which I will post in a thread I will start.

7. Level - integration of “best of the science” with the „best of the spirituality ( high philosophy + high ecology + ...) , possible partial answer to the TOE. TOE should be based on laws on nature but with the respect to our “real existence” and “HIGH SPIRITUALITY” (only individuals possess this high spirituality, not entire H.s.s.) as a product of „real existence“.

I do not believe in spirituality and even less do I believe that spirituality can be merged with science. No, they are opposites, but there is no possible synthesis out of them. Hegel was wrong.

8. level – „integration of all integrations“ , at this stage possible answer to the TOE., most of the time deep meditation, not sure, highly speculative, maybe only theoretical ????

Definitely not only theoretical. Applicability also exists always were there is science and philosophy.

I think that most of the people today (above 60%) would range from 3.level – 4. level.

I sort of agree. It’s really a hard thing to determine. Easier than looking at people, is to look at societies. A group in a society may be already in the last level, developing it. Others still live in the 2. I think the grand majority to be in 3-4-5-6. I wonder one think in your leveling: Where does philosophy enter?
Of course it is everywhere nearly, for it is in science in ecology, in best of science, in integration of all integrations, in myths and religions (philosophy of theism), in egocentrism (let’s not forget Machiavelli)… But the point where the main concern is developing the arts and philosophy of oneself, that is the product of level 8, the end of it, the objective of it.

I had a lot of thoughts about the universe, but I think it is better to leave this for another post!

I think this post was so fundamental you should have posted as a thread in Metaphysics or “Your TOE theory” forums. But never mind, if you want to talk more about the universe we can start threads where appropriate.
[QUOTE=Marko]I am completely aware that this theory needs to me upgraded, this is only a core!!!
[/QUOTE]
One can’t present a whole theory to it’s full extends in a single post. I highly recommend you that when you have all your thoughts well established, and your theory more developed and defended, to write an article and post it in the research articles or the other article manager (we have to in toequest: one more proper, one more simple).

P.S. I apologize for some possible spelling errors!

Never mind, I always make many spelling errors. We’re not in a philology class, we’re scientists and philosophers decoding the notes in the symphony of the universe.
Thanks for presenting me your theory, for wanting me to comment on it, and for reading my reply.