Evolution Since Human Intervention

[Mikal]

Do you seriously think this ?



I was really refering to the crossing of the Weismann Barrier which uses Lamarckian theory as its foundation.

cool bananas ... greg

Hi Greg...would you explain this Weismann Barrier to me as it kind of caught my attention and I would like to understand
this....


Thanks in advance....Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Gee Austin...time to come out of the dream! Darwin was the largest social engineering feat ever
attempted and carried out. I think it would be time to study the ways of the world....

I have read your conspiracy theory about Darwin. Have heard about his relative, Erasmus, too, or whomever.

Others knew of evolution, too, like Wallace and more.

Not only did evolution happen via natural selection, but if there are additional ways then science will find them, too. Science is inexorable.

Creationist dogma can only try to retard scientific advances, at best. So far, it has disgraced itself in fighting evolution. Read about Behe at the Dover courthouse.

Perhaps time for you to learn the natural sciences.

('Weismann Barrier') can easily be looked up on Google.

[Profpat]

Hi Austin;

Like our expanding universe if you run it back it comes to a startimg point or point of creation. The same is true for evolution, you come back to a starting point or point of creation.

Because of this I have no problem with accepting both theories. In other words they are NOT mutually exclusive, rather they are necessarily complementary. We all evolved from the big bang.

Best,

Pat

[Meem]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

As for the barrier, maybe that barrier is none existent in the "real sense," but does exist because we cannot yet look further, beyond the barrier, so that's all we see ... limitations and barriers.
I wonder how the article I posted here http://www.toequest.com/forum/genera...g-article.html plays into the Weismann Barrier concept? This isn't my cup of tea, but this barrier would seem to block mutation.

[labelwench]

Can you provide an example of anything, any trait, that is uniquely human, that no other mammal or creature can demonstrably possess ? I will try to show you that this trait exists in other mammals, or even other species.
Originally posted by Greybeard

Our proclivity for sex that is unrelated to procreation is shared by a few other species. Some of such activity serves the purpose of bonding and mate retention in these cases, for all species that engage in such, and provides further benefits and protection to the individuals and their offspring.

My comment is directed toward the almost obsessive amount of time, energy and money that our species invests in this pursuit. We have a significant portion of our economy that overtly and covertly, caters to the desires of sex, or at minimal, enhancing one's perception of sexiness.

And desire itself, is another trait that homo sapiens seems to possess in abundance, beyond other species....

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Greg, Science = 1+2=3

1 = Past
2 = Present
3 = Future

If science weren't so stupid, it'd do the total numbers, so we could build a proper world... Greg, You don't hear anything, except your own false ego...

Top of the intellect is Arithmetic__Ratios. The true mathematical scientist has spoken...

The Triadic Maxim___Any Idea; “Arithmetically check all possible effects, against all possible premises, and the combined results will be the total actions of the idea.”

Btw, you left out Mao's China__That puts it well over the 100 mil mark__Millions impaled__I stated no timeline = '20's to '50's, not WWII only...

Btw, Wiki's only partially credible for base research, only. The Pdf's, books and science archives must be consulted__thoroughly...

I don't understand how you relate my views to these events ?

The Second world war killed 42 million, 20 million in Russia (latest revised is 72 million, 42 million in Russia alone) ... Why would I not believe the Holocaust occurred(Because your Beliefs are all over the place. I use math. You have beleifs and facts conflated__Fix... Read Bibra__He teaches how...) ... Why is it more relevant than any other ?(Who said it was? You don't even seem to get general conversation...) Why are Hitler and Stalin singled out ?(How much does your mansion cost? If you have to ask, you don't need to know...) Your replies to my posts are emotional responses.(Wrong__Mathematical responses, i.e., scientific__Ratio...) I see nothing wrong with China's progress forward,(Not my fault if you can't do math...) and could put forward valid reasons why(Reasons are emotions__Rationalism is science...) ... in as much as anyone can put forward valid reasons(emotions__I use ratios, thank-you...) for new social structures. But this is politics and I don't wish to go any further(Ratios are over your head, ha...?) .. your quite free to argue these things with me by PM, or if you prefer request Robert for a special forum to discuss modern political strategies(Not needed, as philosophy already is open minded enough to discuss it, but I'm not wanting to here. I'm just being forced to back off your ridiculous emotional statements, with examples, as best as is feasible...) ...

I don't see Evolution by Natural Selection as a fair system, a just system ... or an unfair or unjust system(you really mean, you don't see any system, except your own ego...) ... I could easily argue that despite the number killed in the WWII the benefits that followed have prolonged more life than was ever sacrificed.(moot tautological point... I can also argue the universe Is...)

The future does not exist(Numbers of it do, if you weren't so lazy...) .... So there can be no designed outcome(Scientifically false__this would mean architects can't design future buildings__They do...) .... do you understand what I am implying here(Non-sense...) .... the future is unknown and unknowable(To people to lazy to do probability math, which btw, about all quantum mechanics depends on...) ... even to Evolution !!(Math figures Greg__It doesn't guess. Math is the necessary truth...) Whatever influence Man has on the future it will still be a complementary sharing of resources .... change will occur within the system but not without ??? 'Tremendous influence' is just a Human term.(Flat-Earthers are no longer listened to...)

No offence .. greg

(No offence...)

[Meem]

the future is unknown and unknowable

Does this mean it is also unshaped and unshapely? Why do we do so many things to shape the future if we don't know how it will turn out? Why go to school, I can't change the future, even if my own future is a part of "the" future, have I not shaped it or known it? China does have a right to advance, but they also have a responsibility to do so with the future in mind. And we who would judge them harshly (as I get a sense of environmental importance) should first judge ourselves. When I saw 2012 (the movie) I cringed on the idea that the fate of humanity would depend on some-things made in China. As it appears, that might not be too far from the truth. But whom is to blame, the supplier or the one demanding the supplied? I think it is just as much our responsibility to help China to become more environmentally friendly as it is their "duty." They have only been doing what we wanted, low-cost high-impact manufacturing.

The world will either be "saved" by not shopping at Wal-Mart or getting Wal-Mart to adopt higher environmental standards. Some of the products produce there cannot be produce in the same manner here, because of the impact. It makes no sense to me to say it's ok to buy it here, just not make it here ... like that. I would rather burn my own house down in error, rather than some other's. We (the rest of the "developed world") are the ones fueling the "fires" in China.

China can either,

1) take it upon themselves to change
2) ask for our help to change
3) or wait for us to withdraw our economic support (consumerism/consumption of their goods - our demand) before changing.

If both parties do nothing,
I don't even like to imagine that.

[Meem]

Dogma is a STOP SIGN, in any field, saying “case closed”.

So you agree that science shouldn't say the case- against "God"- is closed?

[labelwench]

So you agree that science shouldn't say the case- against "God"- is closed?

We limit ourselves by accepting only those things for which we have arrived at a means of measure.

Yet, we keep seeking for new means to measure those things that we intuitively sense have not yet been discerned quantitatively.

[Graybeard]

Our proclivity for sex that is unrelated to procreation is shared by a few other species.

I believe many other species ..... Once Maslow's base of the pyramid is being met ... ALL species of Mammal indulge in a form of leisure (some other species too) ... including sex ... both Homosexual and hetrosexual .. and without guilt.

Some of such activity serves the purpose of bonding and mate retention in these cases, for all species that engage in such, and provides further benefits and protection to the individuals and their offspring.

My comment is directed toward the almost obsessive amount of time, energy and money that our species invests in this pursuit. We have a significant portion of our economy that overtly and covertly, caters to the desires of sex, or at minimal, enhancing one's perception of sexiness.

And desire itself, is another trait that homo sapiens seems to possess in abundance, beyond other species....

I don't agree that 'obsessive indulgence' is a different trait ... all creatures love sex, which brings its own rewards.

I see nothing wrong with this. Your use of the word obsessive is in what form of measurement, what scale do you consider 'not obsessive' ... If you want to see obsessive in another species .. Male Dolphins will hound a single female for days on end, even to the point where she cannot care for her 'adolescent' young ... even to the point of death. We are neither the most obsessive nor the least.

I am not saying that alll mutations are beneficial ... just that at any point in the unfolding, the 'most fit' mutations are dominant. But they are not perfect ? If they were Evolution could not work, would have no reason to adapt ... and as we know that time is unceasing and circumstance always changing then 'perfect' would be a serious flaw, preventing diversity. Every species is involved in an arms race with the rest in a struggle to control scarce resources. Resources will always be scarce because life's appetite will always engage to utilise all that is available.

cool bananas ... greg