Evolution Since Human Intervention

[Meem]

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rotflmao .... Where do I start ???

Ok ..... First... I don't want to start a riot on the forum ... especially as I am supposed to be a Moderator, one under a cloud ... lol

So PLEASE do not take the following example out of context ... NOR apply meanings to it that I did not/do not entertain at the time I post it !!!


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If we consider ourselves a tribe (Lloyd, just for this explanation ... indulge me a bit here .. OK?)

And as we are all members of this tribe (in this story) , and it is early days where we are still mastering the stone axe and learning the control of fire then each person plays a part in the communal acts required to keep the tribe alive, healthy, and hi morale.

Some are Hunters, some are gatherers, some are elders, some are young initiates, etc ... each one has a job, a given task ... and as each person carries out his/her task the tribe (a nomadic tribe in this story) prospers and thrives ... even in times of scarce resources ... they are a single cohesive functional unit

Ok Lloyd ... ??

If our Tribe was in Australia, around 30,000 to 40,000 years ago then we would have had various Laws and values.

Let me describe some:

We respect all other Tribes territories:
Should we visit a neighbouring tribes territory ... then when we approach the other tribes campsite ... a formality must be enacted ...We must a make a noise while a fair distance off, we must halt at this point, we must sit or crouch down and lay our weapons on the Earth. A young scout will be sent to observe and return with a report. If all is well, then we will be invited into the other tribes campsite. Today we knock or ring a doorbell or make an appointment

We enact Law that compels obedience to the Elders:
As the Elders are the repository of the whole tribes experience, they are the justice enforcement kernel of the tribe. Should one of us males sneak from our own little personal campfire, to the campfire of another, especially female, and indulge in illicit sex (the elders decide what is licit, but personal choice is allowed, where it does not cross tribal protocol) and should we be caught ... then the law is enacted.

The male is given a sunrise start to make scarce .. at that evenings sunset the young bucks, the most fit, will be unleashed like rabid dogs from their chains to hunt the offender down and spear him. No exceptions ... and rarely is the offender so strong willed as to make an escape ... especially as he will be killed if found on any other territory, and to escape he has to cross other territories. Other tribes will know that justice is being enacted thru smoke signals that tell to watch for the fugitive. His fate is sealed.

The female offender will be bought to the Elders. She will be held down. A spear point will be inserted under her kneecap ... and she will limp for the rest of her life. The penalty is to ensure that she does not wander again.

The reason she has not been killed is that she is a 'breeder' .. and too valuable to lose. Not so the Male ...

Today it is the same, we react just as violently if the offender is caught by the offended (lol)

Our Territory contains a valuable resource:
A greater resource than our tribe can utilise or preserve .. at a certain time of the year: Should our tribal territory contain such a resource such as the Bunya Nut which ripens about every 4 years, or the Bogong Moth ... or other such seasonal dependent abundances ... then because these occur in our territory and as we cannot utilise all of the abundance ... then we are in serious danger of attack by many neighbouring tribes. Therefore Laws are developed between our Elders and the Elders of other tribes to allow access to our territory during such times. This mixing of tribes become seasonal festive occassions (Corroborees) and one day far in the future will lead to such extravagances as the Rio De Janerio Carnival, The Mardi Gras, The FA cup, The Olympics. But these are early days, and at our Corroborees violence and death play some part ... as when the various tribes mix, adultery plays a high part in the covert part of the festivities .. and of course tribal law must be enacted when adultery is detected. When this adultery, and other small scandals occur between tribes, loyalties can become outraged .. and internicine battles can occur .... The tribal Elders have a stressful program during Corroborees and are seen to be on their mettle. Also at these times initiations can occur within the tribe for the youth .. and intertribal... between elders and high rankers so that future diplomatic relations are maintained. As well women are promised and negotiated for when they come of marriagable age .. between tribes.

Ok .... You get the picture ... I could go on listing examples forever ... some very very very interesting.

The point I am making here is that in the 'society of our tribe' we can see the 'roots' that lead to todays society. The Laws haven't changed that much, the law enforcement hasn't changed that much for similar reasons ...... If you understand my examples then you are implicitly agreeing with the progression from tribal values to our current 2010 values .. otherwise you wouldn't comprehend the values.

All of this of course is conducted by Humans, making Human decisions, freely within Democratic rule. ostensibly we have free will. We understand it, it is comprehensible to minds like ours. Our perception of all this is factual and correct !!

So ..... (for the 3 examples)

We respect all other Tribes territories:
We enact Law that compels obedience to the Elders:
Our Territory contains a valuable resource that is worth fighting for:

We recognise the above three examples in our day to day life by our actions:

By our diplomatic actions in relation to the first.
By our obedience to Law in relation to the second.
By our Defence Forces and our willingness to engage in battle or negotiate in relation to the third.

The first three are our (conditional) freely willed inputs
The second three result as outputs of the first three. (cause and effect)

Is there an alternative explanation that could achieve the second three outputs ... independent of our free will ??

I think there is an alternative explanation. (and so do anthropologists) and it all confirms Darwin's Theories of Natural Selection

Have you seen appocolypto, avatar, and if these are too fantastical, do you remember the trail of tears? Don't understand me to be provoking anything else but thought. Is Darwin's theory law, and should I accept the hypothetical to confirm law? Is the theory complete, does it cover .... everything? Do you remeber when you told me I confused cosmic evolution with biological evolution? Why did you refer to cosmic events as part of your last post about the evolution of biological organisms? I thought ... you thought they were different?

I know, 20 questions, right? Would it help if I gave you a piece of wood to carve while don't think about it toouch?

[labelwench]

E pluribus unum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

E Pluribus Unum included in the Seal of the United States, being one of the nation's mottos at the time of the seal's creation

E pluribus unum, Latin for "Out of many one", is a motto requested by Pierre Eugene du Simitiere (originally Pierre-Eugène Ducimetière) and found in 1776 on the Seal of the United States, along with Annuit cœptis and Novus ordo seclorum, and adopted by an Act of Congress in 1782. The phrase originally came from Moretum, a poem attributed to Virgil but with the actual author unknown. In the poem text, color est e pluribus unus describes the blending of colors into one. A different account was put forward in the Discovery Channel program "Secret America". According to an interview with Priscilla Linn, Senior Curator, State Dept. Diplomacy, the phrase "Out of Many, One" came from a magazine called "The Gentleman's Magazine," published at the time of the revolution. Each year, the magazine would re-purpose one article from each of the year's 12 issues, publishing a standalone issue that was "Out of many, one".

Never codified by law, E pluribus unum was considered a de facto motto of the United States until 1956 when the United States Congress passed an act (H.J. Resolution 396), adopting In God We Trust as the official motto.[1] Seth Read of Uxbridge, Massachusetts was said to have been "instrumental" in the addition of "E Pluribus Unum" to U.S. Coins.[2] The first coins with this motto appeared as early as 1786 at Thomas Machin's mint in the Town of Newburgh, New York.

While Annuit cœptis and Novus ordo seclorum appear on the reverse side of the great seal, E pluribus unum appears on the obverse side of the seal (Designed by Charles Thomson), the image of which is used as the national emblem of the United States, and appears on official documents such as passports. It also appears on the seal of the President and in the seals of the Vice President of the United States, of the United States Congress, of the United States House of Representatives, of the United States Senate and on the seal of the United States Supreme Court. E pluribus unum, written in capital letters, is included on most U.S. currency, with some exceptions to the letter spacing (such as the reverse of the dime). It is also embossed on the edge of the dollar coin. (See United States coinage and paper bills in circulation).

Originally suggesting that out of many colonies or states emerge a single nation, it has come to suggest that out of many peoples, races, religions and ancestries has emerged a single people and nation – illustrating the concept of the melting pot.[3]

Its Anglicized pronunciation is /ˈiː ˈplʊərɨbəs ˈuːnəm/; Latin [ˈeː ˈpluːribus ˈuːnum].

Diversity unto similarity, and similarity through diversity.

Apparently, in studying the platypus, considerably more has been learned about the genes we share with our early mammalian ancestors.

Comparison of the platypus genome with the DNA of humans and other mammals, which diverged later, and the genomes of birds, whose ancestors branched off an estimated 315 million years ago, can help scientists fill gaps in their understanding of mammalian evolution. The comparison also will allow scientists to date the emergence of genes and traits specific to mammals.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0507131453.htm

[labelwench]

The Relief of Lucknow post was the first one that I came upon, after my rest, so by the rules of the thread, you shall have to indulge my idiosyncrasy of circling back. Greg likes to toss in some interesting nuggets along the way.....

THE RELIEF OF LUCKNOW

by: Robert Trail Spence Lowell (1816-1891)
H, that last day in Lucknow fort!
We knew that it was the last;
That the enemy's mines crept surely in,
And the end was coming fast.

To yield to that foe meant worse than death;
And the men and we all worked on;
It was one day more of smoke and roar,
And then it would all be done.

There was one of us, a corporal's wife,
A fair, young, gentle thing,
Wasted with fever in the siege,
And her mind was wandering.

She lay on the ground, in her Scottish plaid,
And I took her head on my knee;
"When my father comes fame frae the pleugh," she said
"Oh! then please wauken me."

She slept like a child on her father's floor,
In the flecking of woodbine shade,
When the house-dog sprawls by the open door,
And the mother's wheel is stayed.

It was smoke and roar and powder-stench,
And hopeless waiting for death;
And the soldier's wife, like a full-tired child,
Seemed scarce to draw her breath.

I sank to sleep; and I had my dream
Of an English village-lane,
And wall and garden; but one wild scream
Brought me back to the roar again.

There Jessie Brown stood listening
Till a sudden gladness broke
All over her face; and she caught my hand
And drew me near and spoke:

"The Hielanders! Oh! dinna ye hear
The slogan far awa?
The McGregor's? Oh! I ken it weel;
It's the grandest o' them a'!

"God bless thae bonny Hielanders!
We're saved! We're saved!" she cried;
And fell on her knees; and thanks to God
Flowed forth like a full flood-tide.

Along the battery line her cry
Had fallen among the men,
And they started back; -- they were there to die;
But was life so near them, then?

They listened for life; the rattling fire
Far off, and the far-off roar,
Were all; and the colonel shook his head,
And they turned to their guns once more.

Then Jessie said, "That slogan's done;
But can ye hear them noo,
'The Campbells are comin''? It's no dream;
Our succors hae broken through."

We heard the roar and the rattle afar,
But the pipes we could not hear;
So the men plied their work of hopeless war,
And knew that the end was near.

It was not long ere it made its way,
A thrilling, ceaseless sound:
It was no noise from the strife afar,
Or the sappers under ground.

It was the pipes of the Highlanders!
And now they played "Auld Lang Syne."
It came to our men like the voice of God,
And they shouted along the line.

And they wept, and shook one another's hands,
And the women sobbed in a crowd;
And every one knelt down where he stood,
And we all thanked God aloud.

That happy day, when we welcomed them,
Our men put Jessie first;
And the general gave her his hand, and cheers
Like a storm from the soldiers burst.

And the pipers' ribbons and tartan streamed,
Marching round and round our line;
And our joyful cheers were broken with tears,
As the pipes played "Auld Lang Syne."
"The Relief of Lucknow" is reprinted from Historic Poems and Ballads. Ed. Rupert S. Holland. Philadelphia: George W. Jacobs & Co., 1912.

[Graybeard]

Is Darwin's theory law, and should I accept the hypothetical to confirm law? Is the theory complete, does it cover .... everything?

Its fully accepted ??

Do you remeber when you told me I confused cosmic evolution with biological evolution? Why did you refer to cosmic events as part of your last post about the evolution of biological organisms? I thought ... you thought they were different?

No .. I didn't mean to imply they were different ... just that biological evolution is a 'subset' of Cosmic evolution. Sorry for that confusion.

cool bananas ... greg

[Graybeard]

Graybeard,

I hope you haven't carved to deeply into your wooden leg, I get the feeling (lol) you're getting emotional. At least we know you're human.

If you say no, we are not a part, we do not make, or effect the natural, what are we then? Super-natural or unatural. These seem like the only two other options in nature, I mean ....

I mean we are just a part .. no more .. no less .. no more significant than any other.

How can we say that mans intervention has changed the course of evolution

This is where you loose it, in my opinion. How can we not if we are it? Asteroids, alge gas, ice-ages, did they shape evolution? Of course they did, and just like these objects are we, part of the natural ... right? Do you think asteroids pondered the effect they would have? Even though we and they are parts, we seem to be set apart, if only a part. Do we, yes. Do they, yes. Can we make a difference?

I'm sorry Meem, I should have been clearer ... of course mans intervention has contributed change ... but so do all things ... I think we have as much free will choice to act outside the system as an individual bird does when it is wheeling in a flock ... no bird is in control, and yet the flock has no mind of its own. This is emergent behaviour. Observation of the flock gives it an entity, a presence ... and yet there is no flock ... just each bird reacting almost instantaneously to any alteration in its nearest neighbour's flight pattern.

And so the flock wheels mindlessly if it becomes locked in a loop, or aimlessly. We are a conglomeration of cells ... acting apparently in unison ... we make our mental choice, but in reality the choice is controlled by prior chemical actions that are occurring at cell level ... the truth of this is that we only perceive after the event. Something has to happen before we register change ... as our memory banks record the events, the changes, the patterns repeat so that we can make predictions, anticipate events thru comparison with prior stored records ... this is how we perceive change .. a deviation from previous events. Once we learn to anticipate, we come to believe we have choice.

At this point our mind seems flooded with proof that we are the 'directors' of the film ... when really we are just the actors reacting to a script that is being written on the fly. Just like the flock of birds can instantly change direction at what appears to be a single command ... but in emergent behaviour the command is never issued, there is nothing to issue it, it is just a reaction.

My opinions only

cool bananas ... greg

[Mikal]

Dear Possum ... much as i would like to claim it as my own ... its not .... I got it from the link that Austin supplied in the previous post ...

But with such kind words of yours, i really wish it was mine ... lol

cool bananas ... greg

Hi Greg…thanks for the humble confession…smiles…I too confess I never read the link because with that post the thread deteriorated into a condensed smallness intentional to entertaining people at the expense of another person. Then you see people actually thanking such small and mean-spirited expressions and really you just go away and wonder why people are participating in such a great forum as the TOE…
Listen bud, maybe I cannot give you credit for that particular brilliance, but I do know you are a brilliant thinker who has applied yourself to your particular studies. So how about I give you graciousness?? I certainly see that here in your response…

The best of the day to you....

Regards Mikal

[Graybeard]

Then you see people actually thanking such small and mean-spirited expressions and really you just go away and wonder why people are participating in such a great forum as the TOE…

I wouldn't worry to much about the thank you button Mikal... I know that I quite often thank a post just for a single sentence it contained, or because the person bothered to reply, or that their understanding impressed me, even if I don't always agree with it.

Trying to determine why a 'thanks' has been attached to a post is as fraught with difficulty as trying to determine the future by reading the tea leaves in a cup ... lolol

cool bananas... greg

[Mikal]

Thanks Greg...the wisdom of my own 61 years tells me there is a grave difference between jest which I actually
find delightful at times and intention to demean....sorry I have a very intentional attention span and putting the
whole of a situation into perspective is quite a swift process for me. Believe me there is no reading tea leaves in
my life...its all decipherment dear...smiles...

Regards Mikal

[labelwench]

And so the flock wheels mindlessly if it becomes locked in a loop, or aimlessly. We are a conglomeration of cells ... acting apparently in unison ... we make our mental choice, but in reality the choice is controlled by prior chemical actions that are occurring at cell level ... the truth of this is that we only perceive after the event. Something has to happen before we register change ... as our memory banks record the events, the changes, the patterns repeat so that we can make predictions, anticipate events thru comparison with prior stored records ... this is how we perceive change .. a deviation from previous events. Once we learn to anticipate, we come to believe we have choice.
Originally posted by Graybeard

An interesting metaphor, two actually.....

Once we learn to anticipate, we come to believe we have choice.......I'm particularly intrigued by this morsel.....

We cannot choose our past, it has already been formed and cast.

Between anticipated future outcomes, then, is our choice, our choice most often determined by the path of least resistance, on occasion by the greatest perceived benefit for self or those held dear.

Now is the moment of our choosing. It is always 'now', when we make a choice, although each choice may be predicated on past choices and outcomes, with the prospect of future options or choices also a consideration.

I believe that elsewhere I mentioned that in my opinion, there is no 'original thought', it is only original to us.

Thoughts, (original or otherwise) on this?

[Meem]

Originally Posted by Graybeard
I mean we are just a part .. no more .. no less .. no more significant than any other

Then why classify anything, there is no significance to it? I say people, you say rocks ... all the same. Science says otherwise (we and rocks are quite different) and made from all the same stuff.

Originally Posted by Graybeard
I think we have as much free will choice to act outside the system as an individual bird does when it is wheeling in a flock ... no bird is in control, (choice is substituted for control) and yet the flock has no mind of its own.

I am being a bit picky, but all in due course my good man, pay me no mind.

But at first glance it appears you might be saying you believe in free-will, but on second it doesn't. You think we have as much free-will choice as an individual bird, then supply a condition where you can imply the bird does not. I hope my wings aren't mindlessly wheeling in a loop or contradiction with an almost sardonic pitch. Also I think it is important to note, how this is offensive to evolution, each step is different, not all the same. Do you think Albert Einstein, MLK, Elvis, or many others were these comparable individual birds with no mind or control over the flock? I don't think you believe that.

Originally Posted by Graybeard
Something has to happen before we register change ... as our memory banks record the (past) events, the changes (present) , the patterns repeat so that we can make predictions (future)

What is the pattern "saying" repeatedly?

Originally Posted by Graybeard
do you understand what I am implying here .... the future is unknown and unknowable ... even to Evolution

Hmmm, I'll have to think a bit longer to see if these two statements mesh or not.

In the meantime, I'll try to refrain from making things too complicated.

Cool Beans!!