Earthly Equine Evolution

[RascalPuff]

Among the more popular misunderstandings about horses is that they originated in Eurasia and were transferred here by the Spaniards of the 14 and 1500's, whereas, along with the camel, horses originated on what is now called the North American continent (about 35 to 56 million years ago); migrated to Eurasia via the Bering Straits and were finally brought back to the North American continent by the early Spanish expeditions. Their prolonged absence from North America is more or less mysterious, though, apparently weather changes, and possibly the migration of human kind across the Bering straits - but in the opposite direction (moving from Asia to North America, instead of conversely) - may have had something to do with it.

Forensic evidence, fairly recently acquired in the Ukraine, indicates that horses may not have been domesticated until about 8,000 years ago; though they were certainly among humanities sources of nutrition, for millennia.

Paleaontology has learned much about evolution from the horse's legacy, simply because it's skeletal residue tends to endure more elemental dissolution and erosion than animal bones of smaller stature.

For more detailed information please access the material ('Horse Talk'), at:
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/...tion-176.shtml

Googling the 'Evolution of the horse' will (of course) yield much additional information on this subject. : )

There is also a more cavalierly formatted reference source at the following url, where the horse plays the key part in two of the four major revolutions in human warfare - namely, the onager, as engine of the spoke wheeled chariot (which was the first revolution in warfare), and, the cavalry horse; which was the second (of four revolutions) in warfare. Of course, the grass seed emerged about 250 million years ago, and all warm blooded animals - including horses - emerged from there...
http://forums.delphiforums.com/subedai/messages/?msg=1.1
NOMADS, CIVILIZATION & WAR: The Hinges of History


Post Script:
Although there's no way of presently knowing, hopefully LabelWench will provide an abundance of valuable contributions to this dissertation.

Best regards,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Among the more popular misunderstandings about horses is that they originated in Eurasia and were transferred here by the Spaniards of the 14 and 1500's, whereas, along with the camel, horses originated on what is now called the North American continent

Hi Rascal ...... where is 'here' .....

And also please supply evidence that Eohippus originated in America .... and, just in case no one knows where america is ... its 'here'

cool bananas ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Among the more popular misunderstandings about horses is that they originated in Eurasia and were transferred here by the Spaniards of the 14 and 1500's, whereas, along with the camel, horses originated on what is now called the North American continent (about 35 to 56 million years ago); migrated to Eurasia via the Bering Straits and were finally brought back to the North American continent by the early Spanish expeditions. Their prolonged absence from North America is more or less mysterious, though, apparently weather changes, and possibly the migration of human kind across the Bering straits - but in the opposite direction - may have had something to do with it.

Forensic evidence, fairly recently acquired in the Ukraine, indicates that horses may not have been domesticated until about 8,000 years ago; though they were certainly among humanities sources of nutrition, for millennia.

Paleaontology has learned much about evolution from the horse's legacy, simply because it's skeletal residue tends to endure more elemental dissolution and erosion than animal bones of smaller stature.

For more detailed information please access the material ('Horse Talk'), at:
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/...tion-176.shtml

Googling the 'Evolution of the horse' will (of course) yield much additional information on this subject. : )

There is also a more cavalierly formatted reference source at the following url, where the horse plays the key part in two of the four major revolutions in human warfare - namely, the onager, as engine of the spoke wheeled chariot (which was the first revolution in warfare), and, the cavalry horse; which was the second (of four revolutions) in warfare. Of course, the grass seed emerged about 250 million years ago, and all warm blooded animals - including horses - emerged from there...
http://forums.delphiforums.com/subedai/messages/?msg=1.1
NOMADS, CIVILIZATION & WAR: The Hinges of History


Post Script:
Although there's no way of presently knowing, hopefully LabelWench will provide an abundance of valuable contributions to this dissertation.

Best regards,
- RP

Dear Greg:
In the same opening sentence the meaning and intent of the (otherwise 'nationalistic') usage of the word 'here' is clarified in the statement that the horse was transferred to the Caribbean and Florida by the early Spanish expeditions, and shortly thereafter - in the same sentence - 'the North American Continent' is subjected.

Moreover, speaking of the first sentence of the opening of the first paragraph, it points out that among the most popular misunderstandings about the horse is that it originated in Eurasia, when in fact it originated in North America, which the provided url - http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/...tion-176.shtml - will make clear to whomever finds time to read it. Apparently you did not read the provided url and were remiss in understanding that the horse - and the camel - originated in North America ('here'), where the Spanish expeditions ventured, bringing the horse (back) with them...

Best regards,
- RP

[Graybeard]

No ... I read it ...... no where does it say Eohippus originated in America ... in fact your linked article does not even mention Eohippus ??

cool bananas ... greg

PS: why do you always default along nationalistic lines ?

[RascalPuff]

No ... I read it ...... no where does it say Eohippus originated in America ... in fact your linked article does not even mention Eohippus ??

cool bananas ... greg

PS: why do you always default along nationalistic lines ?

Dear Grag:

Excerpt from issued url:

"The distribution and nature of much life on earth has been greatly influenced by this crucial land bridge (The Bering Straits). Its appearance and disappearance would also have had an influence on climate, with the closing of the land bridge affecting ocean currents.

The bridge enabled near-global distribution for some species. Mammals from as far away as Africa were able to spread north and east through Eurasia and into the Americas. Camels and horses instead went westward from the Americas, where their respective species had developed.
Horses originated in North America 35-56 million years ago. These terrier-sized mammals were adapted to forest life. Over millions of years they increased in size and diversified.
Horses got larger in size and underwent other changes to their feet and teeth to adapt to changing environments. From five million to 24 million years ago, a number of horses occupied niches to which they had adapted, including grazing the spreading grasslands. It was about four million years ago that the genus of all modern horses arose. The modern horse, known as Equus, evolved from the horse Pliohippus, which arose around 5 million years ago and was extinct by two million years ago."

As regards my usage of the word 'nationalism', we have in previous exchanges encountered your reminder of myself that the United States is not the world, in those paraphrased words.

If you wish to make a finer point about genus (Pliohippus), you are certainly free to do so, while the general point about horses remains in place.

Best regards,
- RP

[Graybeard]

Its always seemed a very dodgy question to me. Much of what is written about the evolution of the horse is no more than horseshit.

For some reason creationists have found, or apparently have found, or claim to have found, flaws in Darwin's theory that can be demonstrated by the history of the 'horse'. This is horseshit too .... I am unsure where the oldest fossil of Eohippus has been found. It may be America.

I find this site the best for information regarding the 'errors' and 'misbeliefs' that surround the evolution of the horse.

CLICK

cool bananas ... greg

[labelwench]

LOL.....

Here I was wondering how I had missed this thread, then realized that at the time of it's posting, I was out riding 24 km on Caramel, my Morgan equivalent of a sports car.

The history of the horse is very murky, as is our own.

My furthest back verifiable fact that I am working from, is that my step-dad's grandmother raised horses for the U.S. Cavalry, as they lived down near the Canada/US border, and this was during the time of Louis Riel. The horses they raised were mostly Morgan, crossed onto Quarter Horse and with a bit of Thoroughbred in them as well.

This is the bloodline I am attempting to duplicate in my selection of Madelaine (from US Government breeding program bloodlines) and Kinnick, who is by a Rhode Island Morgan bloodline, and an Appendix Quarter Horse stallion that has the same lineage that begat Northern Dancer on the Thoroughbred side of the pedigree and Joe Hancock bloodlines on the Quarter Horse side.

The history of the horse is interesting, but in my mind, the future potential, in selecting the best of our previous results as a foundation, holds greater interest.

I'll be back. Night shift pending........

Here's a question for you both.

Describe what an ergot is, and it's purpose, in relation to the horse.

[Graybeard]

A Morgan is a sports car ?? .... but it doesn't require an ergot to breed.


cool bananas ... greg

[RascalPuff]

Its always seemed a very dodgy question to me. Much of what is written about the evolution of the horse is no more than horseshit.

For some reason creationists have found, or apparently have found, or claim to have found, flaws in Darwin's theory that can be demonstrated by the history of the 'horse'. This is horseshit too .... I am unsure where the oldest fossil of Eohippus has been found. It may be America.

I find this site the best for information regarding the 'errors' and 'misbeliefs' that surround the evolution of the horse.

CLICK

cool bananas ... greg

Domestic horses and dogs transcend the longevity of the written history of humankind. Not surprising therefore to find the true, apocryphal, good, bad and oogly dog and pony shows and exhibitions in the notes of Herodotus and all those who could - with trepidation and amusement - scribble, chip and engrave before him; from the grim and burlesque trots and squats, onward.

A few 'Bible as History' - and other - examples follow...

There were sedentary times and places where pastoral 'horsemen' were generally unknown. Some legends say that's where the icon of Sagitarrius - half man and half horse - originated; when the sedentary craftsman perceived a cavalry rider as being an actual extension of the animal he rode. The same perception applies to the Centaur.

Then, there are Old Testament observations...

"Behold! A people come from the north country.
They lay hold on bow and spear.
They are cruel and have no mercy,
Their voices roareth like the sea.
And, they ride upon horses."
- Jeremiah

Long ago having forgotten the source of information, I read of a war horse who's Russian military owner called her 'Lisa'. He wrote a brief essay about an experience that befell himself and his mount during the Napoleonic invasion of Russia; where and when a Russian infantry man struck the flanks of 'Lisa' with an extensive bayonet - though no disabling wounds were inflicted, the attack evoked the ire of the warhorse, which promptly turned and bit the medulla oblongata and upper neck completely off of her antagonist, killing him instantly. Lisa was also known to have long ago in battle, discerned the enemy from the ally, and kicked more than one of Napleon's stooges into the promised land - in one case, doing so, after propping him up against a wall from which he could not escape her onslaught; whereupon with her kicks, she disembowled him. As I recall from the story, the noble steed survived the war and was put out to pasture for the remainder of her days, since she was too fractious for the harness of domestic activities.

The Biblical book of Job describes the warhorse:
"The glory of his nostrils is terrible. He paweth in the valley and rejoiceth in his strength;
he goeth on to meet the armed man. He mocketh at fear and is not affrighted;
neither turneth he back from the sword. The quiver rattleth against him,
the glittering spear and shield. He swalloweth the ground with fearsomeness and rage:
he saith among the trumpets, Ha! Ha! and he smelleth the battle from afar off,
the thunder of the captains and the shouting".

And Frank Trippett, on page 90 of The First Horsemen , finds a historical co-author:
"Wherever man has left his footprint in the long ascent from barbarism to civilization,
we will find the hoofprint of the horse beside it."

Equine students categorize four different kinds of horses:
1) The Barb 2) Norwegian Dun) 3) Przhevalski (Steppe pony) and 4) The Arabian..

The Arabian is said to have originated out of Syria and North Africa and is unique for several reasons - patricularly in the fact that it has one less vertebra in its spine. Some equine authorities say that all of throughbred horseracing owes everything to early Syrian equine animal husbandry.

Of course the Steppe Pony, aka, Przhevalski, is the mount of the cultural 'horse people' - who prevailed in the world from about 2500 BC, until about 1360 AD.

Best regards,
- RP

Post Script:

Dear LabelWench:
According to Google, an ergot is a normal, calllous like growth, just beneath the fetlocks on a horse's legs. I didn't read about whether they have a function or not. Thank you for the question, and for being here. : )

[labelwench]

Yaaaawn, LOL.....4 hours is not nearly enough sleep. This shift is going to bite. Last shift was busy, as we were a guy short, so I was a cutter for the night to assist, and the the day was so fair, I rather got carried away with the exuberance of my own momentum. The horse Caramel is awesome. We rode 2 hrs and 40 minutes without a pause and she was wanting to run, but the rule of conditioning is that one may increase distance or speed, but should not do both at once. Yesterday, we added 25% more distance, so also allowed 25% more time to do it in. Morgans are a versatile breed and endurance one of their known abilities, as well as extreme intelligence.

The ergot is, indeed as you describe it , Rascal, and the purpose I offer comes from people who have spent their lives with horses.

It is believed that the ergot is a scent gland, and that horses, as they move over the terrain, leave evidence of their passing as it contacts grasses and other features of terrain. This does make sense to me, as in trimming excess growth off both the chestnut and the ergot, one will observe an unusual texture to the material of these callous like growths, and a distinct and not unpleasant musky odor.

When a stallion and mare are allowed natural courtship, once the display of running and cavorting is over, the two will check each other out. The stallion will run his nose down the legs of the mare, right to the pastern and back up to the chestnut, which he will gently nibble on, and offer flehmen response, lifting his head high on outstretched neck while curling his lip back against his nostrils, showing the underside and gums, while inhaling. He starts with the front legs and if the mare is tolerant, then checks out the hind legs, usually standing quarter on rather than directly behind the mare, in case her answer is 'No' and the hooves start to fly.

Horses rely considerably on their sense of smell, and when put into an area where another horse has been, they will travel it's perimeter and more, lowering the head and sniffing anything that may have touched the horse in it's passing, including the branches of trees or rubbing posts, and areas where the horse may have rolled, which seems to be another trait of laying claim, as is the manner in which they site and locate their droppings which has territorial significance to the horse, and is used when traveling in new terrain. Every horse I have owned, will squeeze out a few nuggets at varying points on a new trail, as contrasted to their manner of requesting to stop when they seriously need to do their business. Interesting, that when I ride another horse on this trail, it will do similar, even if it has eliminated just moments farther back. Too many years of consistent observation for these animals all to be experiencing nature's call at the same location on different days at different times. There is a purpose to this conduct, and that would be my hypothesis.

So, Greg, while ergots are not part of the breeding system directly, I would suggest that they are used in identification, selection, and that they may convey other useful information to the horse.