Chance vs Divinity

[Meem]

Austin,

Particles collide, "randomly" in the universe, and very determined at CERN. If all these particles were so determined, then we shouldn't have such a hard time matching smashing patterns of them, for that should be pre-determined.

I think the opposite of un-determined, was pre-determined. Determined is a nuetral state without emotion. He was undetermined to finish the race. She was determined to finish the race, as it went on. Austiin was predetermined to finish the race. I'm a bit gibberishy at the moment yes. I was determined to open the door, but it wasn't predetermined.

Are we immune to how particles collide as they must on some level? Well, we can prevent them from colliding and force them to. Surely that accounts for something.

You sound likea "soft-determinst." I believe in free will, but if everything is determined, how can it be? Hiarchal something or another ... which is also very determined, but doesnt make sense.

What amazes me most about randomness, which there has to be some sort of mechanic for, is the way the possibility and probability of "other" universes and "strange" rules/laws of physics could rule there, but possibility or probability of "God" doesnt exist in any of them. That would be "too strange, and complex."

[Meem]

As for determinism, evolution, and biology .... I would propose one way (which I also view as wrong) to discover it does not apply to us. Take two clones, exact genetic replicas of a human being, or an animal. Raise them exactly the same in identically constructed environments (seperate from each other), and use a linked robtic system, because people make to many errors. Do everything exactly the same, at the same time from birth. Will baby one be hungry at the same time as baby two? Will they take the same steps? Will they crawl at the same time, to the same place? If determinism is true, they should. At least I would think so with all condtions being "identical," there should be no variance.

But the inkling really is not an inkling that says, this would not be the case, even if everything is done exactly the same, made exactly the same, and the subjects are genetically exactly the same ... it would not be the same. Would both, if human, watch a movie at age twelve and have the same opinions or favorties? If I could get an instant copy of my current self, would we have the same observations of that same movie? Hmm, maybe, but I doubt it. Somehow, we are all the same, yet very and quite wonderfully uniquely different.

The chance I know is different then the chance here. Here I think more of random-chance, and while those do exist, they aren't as interesting -on the majority- as determined chances, or probabilites. The random-chance that life just popped into being doesn't strike me as very realistic. If it were so, I think I should start rubbing rocks, at the random-chance I might make a diamond someday. Sometimes, I think that absolutely everything that is possible ... is, to include our freedom to move through it. But, that makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

We have a chance to make a difference everyday, randomly with a stranger. And my silly rose-tinted glasses, see that as one of the random-chances that are real, and really matter. I have questioned so many things, so many times, and have grown so tired of doing so. Life .... God .... I am not responsible for either, and much like the artile get at with life, without that trunk it's impossible to understand. And like God, even if we had it right infront of us, it would be impossible to understand, unless you're God. The things I choose to question now, are those simpler things with answers that can be reached by mere mortals.

[labelwench]

The things I choose to question now, are those simpler things with answers that can be reached by mere mortals.

Originally posted by Meem.

I enjoy finding answers, and so I find pleasure in tackling small mysteries.

The larger questions beget more questions.

That's absolutely alright, except when one does attempt to discuss them with another, it is startling to observe that some people are willing to give their life in defense of an unproven concept, as if by so doing, they are verifying beyond any doubt, that their opinion is somehow the 'correct' one.

My accounts will be settled in due time.

Let it ride....

"I shall pass this way but once. Therefore, any good that I can do, or any kindness that I can show, let me do it now, for I shall not pass this way again"
-William Penn

[austintorn@aol.com]

At CERN they are bombarding very small things and so they probably must make many attempts to obtain a direct head-on hit or close to it, the exact infinitesimal direction still being responsible for the unstable particles produced and scattered in various directions which still obey physics and conservation of energy opposites—and so I wouldn't see any randomness there.

As humans, any oxygen molecule is as good as any other that we take in for more complex purposes and so I don't think any particular place or state of any given one matters that much.

[melanie]

The antidote to the madness of Mind is the knowing of heart.
It is what we call 'love', though no word exists, not even a vibration,
which can capture the meaning of love in its Infinite, stillness and silence.

Mind thinks it knows love, but it is blind to its true immensity, numb to its music, its poetry, its All Knowing.
______

Rumi wrote:

Those who don't feel this Love
pulling them like a river,
those who don't drink dawn
like a cup of spring water
or take in sunset like supper,
those who don't want to change,

Let them sleep.

This Love is beyond the study of theology,
that old trickery and hypocrisy.
If you want to improve your mind that way,

Sleep on.

I've given up on my brain.
I've torn the cloth to shreds
and thrown it away.

If you're not completely naked,
wrap your beautiful robe of words
around you,

And sleep.

______



We talk about the 'conscious' Mind when Mind without true Consciousness is unconscious.
Most of this 'world' is unconscious as it - unconsciously - follows the programs of Mind
believing them to be self-awareness and personal 'choice'.

Yet it is only reaction to program, like a computer reading a disk.

Mind is the vehicle for Consciousness - but the 'car' has become also the driver.