[subversion]

I think you bring a very good approach to this question Zeroca. And I like what you said about casting pearls before swine, cuz it kind of feels like thats what I'm doing half the time. It kind of feels like nobody appreciates me.

True the toe has been discovered a thousand times over, in alternate universes, but in any given universe only one person discovers it by nature. Therefore I must represent all the other people who have discovered the toe in alternate time and they must represent me.

Faith is partially fanaticism, but fanaticism is a good thing too. As part of the TOE you're not supposed to believe in bad things. There is a bad side and a good side to most things, but as an adherent of the TOE you do not entertain the bad side. So if you're a fan of something good then that's good fanaticism. We are all fans of the TOE right? The TOE is a good thing right? So our enjoyment which is characterized by fanaticism should be seen as a good thing. Only when you believe in evil does it come about. So even if the preacher doesn't know what the saying means, if it is a good saying, it doesn't really matter much. In this manner being blinded is ok, so long as you are only blinded by the truth, not the opposite.

I am going to use your point that knowledge=faith
If we take that to be true then the obvious answer is that faith is important if we value knowledge. So I want to ask you, if knowledge means having faith, then does having faith give you knowledge? I would argue that it does. I came up with a similar statement to yours once which said that naivety=understanding. This doesn't make sense, but yet it does. Both of our statements are contradictory, because supposably knowledge is something you don't have to have faith in. But you have stated yourself that you can never really KNOW anything, all you can do is believe it. So another way to say it is that belief=knowing. This is still inconsistent but that is only correct because truth=inconsistency according to the incompleteness theorem.

My major thesis is that faith=optimism. Would you agree? If that is true, then discovering anything is based on the faith that we can even discover it. So people have to have faith no matter what. Everyday you live you are living on the faith that life is good. Faith just means believing in good, that's all it means. Pessimism is the opposite of faith and it is what will prevent us from getting the TOE. Therefore if people are not faithful or optimistic that I can tell them the TOE, they must believe in evil and therefore I cannot give them the TOE. So I think faith is very important, faith is the basis for everything. And I'm not talking about religious faith, I'm talking about faith in general.

Originally Posted by zeroca If you believe that the world exists eternally, you should guess that eternal number of persons knew the TOE, so every time somebody discovers it, he/she finds out already known truth. Even if you know the TOE, you should be careful not to “cast pearls before swine”, as humanity in whole doesn’t need the TOE, only a few individuals do, and also “a dog deserves a bone only, but not a veal”. And what is faith and what is difference between it and fanaticism? I myself believe that any faith based on knowledge is real faith, so normally for me a faith = a knowledge (i.e. when I know something, I have faith in it), but at the same time I can be mistaken, as well as everyone and not always notice it, since “to err is human”. For example, when the priest repeats the word of Jesus: ’’I’m in father and father is in me”, does he really know actually what kind of action stays behind these words? He has strong faith that he does, but if you ask him to explain, you can see that the big majority of priests actually don’t know, i.e. his faith stays close to fanaticism, i.e. I’d like to say that different people can interpret any phenomenon or event differently. It depends on their intrinsic abilities. Even it happens that in a few cases some uneducated people are smarter, and some law-breakers - better psychologists practically then doctors of psychological sciences… So, everything is relative and faith (a complex function of brain) as well, i.e. maybe it's important, but not determinative…

[Robert]

Some comments on faith that I'd like to throw out

One definition of faith...

"Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

This kind of faith goes against the purpose and mission of ToeQuest. Beliefs should be based on sound reasoning and material evidence where possible. To have faith, i.e. hold a strong belief, in absense of any evidence confirming or denying the belief, is alright unless it causes us to disregard the evidence that comes along and challenges those beliefs. That is the danger of this kind of faith. And it is human nature that when we hold strong beliefs we tend to notice evidence supporting our beliefs but overlook, disregard, and trivialize evidence that conflicts with our beliefs.

It may be ok to hold this kind of faith as long as it doesn't stop us from searching for the objective truth behind reality. And we must have the courage to change our beliefs to match the evidence. The Quest for the TOE demands this.

Another definition of faith...

To have confident belief in a truth, value, or the trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

This kind of faith can be good but also has a dark side. On the one hand, it gives us inspiration to work harder, with more enthusiasm, confidence, and personal drive. This kind of faith has propelled many people to greatness because it creates a "never-give-up" attitude and a "go-getter" type of ambition that helps people to overcome obstacles. As an example, I have faith that the Theory of Everything will be discovered and that it will provide an explanation for the way all of reality works at the deepest levels.

On the other hand, to put blind faith in a religion, an ideology, a belief system, or a charismatic leader can shut down your ability to think for yourselves. To find the truth you should question everything. You should question your culture-derived beliefs, your religious beliefs, the news you hear on tv, popularized theories about the universe, etc. Many people have been caught up in religions, ideologies, or cults where their minds are manipulated into believing a certain way that may be out of touch with reality.

I have to say that faith in a leader, symbol, or even TOE discoverer may lead to a false enlightenment. You should have faith in yourself that you can consider the evidence and come to reasonable conclusions. You should not blindly follow another or value an ideology or doctrine over the individual. I think the TOE discoverer may reasonably seek recognition but I think would be more interested in the advancement of science over any personal glory.

Why would the TOE discoverer want people to put faith in him before revealing his secrets? This would make me very suspicious and should send up red flags for everyone. In the extreme case is the cult leader who requires complete faith from his followers. The cult leader uses many mechanisms for thought reform including, one of Dr. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform, "Sacred Science" --

Offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

The cult considers their doctrines and beliefs to be sacred and beyond question. Thus, no alternative viewpoint is allowed to exist and open consideration of alternative ideas and free discussion are squashed. Again, this is an extreme case and does not apply to subversion.

I think my main point is that a little faith is ok where faith means you're optimistic and motivated to pursue a worthy cause. To much faith, or a blind faith, has dangers that all TOE quest seekers should be aware.

[michellemfry]

I deeply am looking forward to a TOE. The whole idea of there being an everything is so appealing. The marriage of the mathematics, the philosophy, and the congregation is the ultimate trinity. I am not the holder of the theory. Someone else has that privilege. But I like watching all the wheels turning as we all discuss that which we want to share.

[zeroca]

Originally Posted by subversion So I want to ask you, if knowledge means having faith, then does having faith give you knowledge?

I agree in almost every point, but if knowledge gives me a faith, that doesn’t mean that the faith gives me knowledge at once as well. Can generally optimism be considered a faith? I can't say definitely: For inst. Realistic people may aren’t optimistic but they have a strong faith based on real perception, realization of their inner and outer reality, but a patient suffering with schizophrenia (manic-depressive syndrome) has the periods with great optimism, that isn’t based on reality, so which in a while alternates with depressive periods, so optimism can be considered a mood, prompting individual, so anyway we can consider it a kind of faith...
I’d like to give practical examples from my own experience:
When I used to say that I broke the USSR that was considered the greatest joke at my work and manifestation of great sense of humor: at first everybody considered me to be a little dippy, and we laughed together, but when I tell them my story about decomposing of the soviet monetary unit, a lot of people considers the tale as a greatest mystery, full of a lot of coincidences and a lot of them listen with great interest.
What changes after telling a story?
When people get to know with facts closer, they change their attitude to the event and interpretation of the event, i.e. they change their faith, and they aren’t to blame in it: normal people try to avoid blind faith and prefer to interpret sum of facts by their own logic, i.e. to say briefly a knowledge is base for the faith, but the kind of faith called optimism, doesn’t give the individual the faith at once: it only prompts him/her to acquire knowledge and in general faith with it.
Even sometimes the obvious facts don’t convince people at all, i.e. don’t change their faith.
Alas! Such is a human nature...

[subversion]

Apprehension breeds evil

You must confront your worst fear and realize that it is doubt

If you do no longer doubt, than you have nothing to be afraid of

So do not be afraid of the TOE, nor the person who has discovered it

Place no doubt and the trueness of human nature will be resolved

The TOE is not a cult following

it will only seem so to someone who doesn’t understand

The difference between what is true and what is false





If I seem scary to you it is only your apprehension that renders me so

Evil nature will render me evil, but if your nature is good then render me so

If you assuage your apprehension, you will see that I am only to be cherished, not feared

I trust you to trust me

because at heart I believe we are not just good, but great

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind

[michellemfry]

The suspension is present. I wanted to add to the Mrs.Potato Head story, but I'm too shy about the subject matter. I would like to invite Robert to my journal to read about her twin sister, Picasso Woman. If you at least smile, I will submit the chapter to the story with some editing, of course.

[subversion]

I'm smiling now