[subversion]

This is the first of a series of threads I plan on doing in which I seek your counsel, the regulars and visitors of TOE quest. Please everyone offer your opinion as counsel to me, because it is extremely valuable for the evolution of the truth as well as for my health. Your opinion is valuable whether you believe I am someone who has discovered the TOE or whether you believe I'm a big fat liar. It does not matter either way for the purposes of this thread.

So the question of this thread is is faith important for those seeking enlightenment? This will obviously bring about an argument between religious and non-religious people, but I invite everyone to put spiritual distinctions and divisions aside and just consider the question from a purely reasonable standpoint.

The reason I ask this question is because I've been working under the assumption that faith is somehow important. I was under the impression that people should put their faith in someone who claims to be the TOE discoverer. I assume that the actual TOE discoverer would expect people to put faith in him, and he would then share the TOE and justify everyone's faith as a faithful response to them having offered it. If people will not offer faith, which is just another word for optimism, then the TOE discoverer would not feel compelled to show them the TOE.

Am I wrong for making this assumption? Perhaps it is everyone's right to not believe ANYTHING until it has been specifically spelled out to them and proven. Maybe we should not be expected to believe anything unless we have to or we have no other choice? Please help me, I need to know. if faith really is or is not important. The TOE discoverer it seems would have to act on faith, but maybe the people don't. Please let me know if I have messed up by assuming faith was important. If you think faith <i>is</i> important, please let me know that too. Thank you all so much.

[Guille]

Sub,

those that can invent (not find, as ussually said: it is invented, not discovered) faith are those that need or are radical into having to believe in something, and woudl do so without reason, logic, or intellect.

But most people now a days believe in god but only as in the perfection, as a security for them, hiding from the simple truth of stopping existing. But they don't believe in physical heavens, hells... Still, they prefear to read their horoscope than an article on how TVs work (not great thing).

What I mean is that I hate humanity for being so vague, so lazy, so spanish in fact, as to leave all the work to the whole, instead of doing something each. Of believing that humanity is a united circle, whiles actually it is not, it is an open line with connection from each point (person) to a few, therefore although all are connected, each is connected to very little. So the line can bend, and bend, and bend, because each side can pull harder, and if it breaks, we will have lost it all.

By the way, those that are "enlightent" are trully: there is a light showing on them which is so hard, that they become blind, and can't see what is true.

[subversion]

so you're saying we should not place faith in the person who has discovered the TOE?

[michellemfry]

You can have faith in a TOE and in God. You can have one, both, or neither. If you have a TOE, others will undoubtedly want to believe and understand it 2. Imagine Einstein before he published, the notes just sitting there. Imagine if he hadn't. What a dull place this would be. Maybe that is my TOE. To understand it 2.

[subversion]

Ahhh yes, see women must be so much smarter than men. That must be funny. I commend you! Thank you for saying "If you have a TOE, others will undoubtedly want to believe and understand it," that really makes me infinitely more confident and at ease.

sincerely, me

[michellemfry]

Oh God, Please send an apology to my poor wounded friend! My words have powers today that I did not order.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by subversion so you're saying we should not place faith in the person who has discovered the TOE?

No I'm not and if you see that in my words, it is because you have misunderstood them, and this is not due to how I right, for it is as logical as Wittgenstein, it is due to hwo you read: in basis of established ideas, therefore, you will never accept anything that contradicts the smallest thing you believe. And in contrast, I change of believe in everything everytime. That is what makes us different, really.

The person that will discover the TOE, won't know everything. Neither will the TOE, or will the consequences of it. We are humans, unsignificant individuals of an unsignificant planet of an unsignificant galaxy of (to be proven) an unsignificant universe of the many. There is NO way we will know nothing compared to everything. We can't even know anything. We can't know that we don't live in a matrix universe. Anyway, coming back to the theme, we should place faith on the person that develops the TOE, but not too much, and the line is very difficult to know where it is.

Originally Posted by michellemfry You can have faith in a TOE and in God. You can have one, both, or neither. If you have a TOE, others will undoubtedly want to believe and understand it 2. Imagine Einstein before he published, the notes just sitting there. Imagine if he hadn't. What a dull place this would be. Maybe that is my TOE. To understand it 2.

I agree, you can believe in both, either, or none. But even more important than what you can believe, is the fact that existance of them is still dependent: they can both exist, or one, or none.

And by the way, how many people understand or want to understand relativity or qm? Only those that are atracted to science. Us. But most people probably won't even care that much, although 50 years later the TOE the whole of our humanity will have change completelly.

Originally Posted by subversion Ahhh yes, see women must be so much smarter than men. That must be funny. I commend you! Thank you for saying "If you have a TOE, others will undoubtedly want to believe and understand it," that really makes me infinitely more confident and at ease. sincerely, me

Hummm..... First, it is just as nonesense to believe wemen are smarter than men than to believe that men are smarter than wemen, or white are smarter than black, or chinese are wiser than indian. You show an aspect which is not well seen in toequest community: MARGINALISM. Second, it is clear not only that oyu are posting completely subjective and based on your religious believes (which are more and more absurd as you present them), but you are doing wrong by getting michelle into this discussion, for she neither permitted it to you or admitted it.

Originally Posted by michellemfry Oh God, Please send an apology to my poor wounded friend! My words have powers today that I did not order.

Thanks, but there is no need for apology. I do know you didn't mean that conclusion from Sub, but, shouldn't we first blame the cocaine trafficant than the consumer?

What is said is said. What is done is done.

[michellemfry]

I too believe in more than one universe, at least there should be one anti-universe possible plus one universe, which makes two universes. Beyond that I am unaware. I have already put my faith in someone who may or may not have a TOE. I do know I am part of the audience, not the speaker. Hello.

[mkirkpatrick]

To believe in youself,to trust that inner monitor,is to acquire faith and strengh
to know yourself,grants the knower courage,and poise,a sense of balance and
equilibrium.To know yourself is truly to know your brother also,and in knowing
that you will intuitively then understand that all is well,and it will appear so.



kind regards michael

[zeroca]

Originally Posted by subversion if faith really is or is not important.

If you believe that the world exists eternally, you should guess that eternal number of persons knew the TOE, so every time somebody discovers it, he/she finds out already known truth.
Even if you know the TOE, you should be careful not to “cast pearls before swine”, as humanity in whole doesn’t need the TOE, only a few individuals do, and also “a dog deserves a bone only, but not a veal”.
And what is faith and what is difference between it and fanaticism?
I myself believe that any faith based on knowledge is real faith, so normally for me a faith = a knowledge (i.e. when I know something, I have faith in it), but at the same time I can be mistaken, as well as everyone and not always notice it, since “to err is human”.
For example, when the priest repeats the word of Jesus: ’’I’m in father and father is in me”, does he really know actually what kind of action stays behind these words? He has strong faith that he does, but if you ask him to explain, you can see that the big majority of priests actually don’t know, i.e. his faith stays close to fanaticism, i.e. I’d like to say that different people can interpret any phenomenon or event differently. It depends on their intrinsic abilities. Even it happens that in a few cases some uneducated people are smarter, and some law-breakers - better psychologists practically then doctors of psychological sciences…

So, everything is relative and faith (a complex function of brain) as well, i.e. maybe it's important, but not determinative…