[Infinite Consciousness]

MIRACLES,

Are they just fairy stories to give comfort to children ?

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick Many thanks theunify for your last post,I cannot share any miracles with you,not that wonderful and uplifting spiritual experiences have not happened to me,they indeed have! But,I do not believe or accept the idea of miracles,and I will tell you why. In my limited understanding,for I have only been studying this for a mere 30 years,I once met an elderly man who had been "practising" meditation for 75 years,he told me he was just "getting the hang of it",but was still learning?? A miracle as I understand it,implies a suspension of natural law,for this "event" to occur! And as natural laws are perfect and absolute in operation, this cannot EVER happen! What instead seems to happen,is that a higher spiritual law,that we do not encounter very often,comes into play and manifests itself,to our great surprise!We see mostly just the heavy and somewhat dross physical laws in regular operation,but we need to be ever mindful that there are many other "higher laws" that ascend the scale of vibrational output from the heavy physical laws throught those of the astral-plane,the etheric-plane,higher mind-and soul-plane,plus the vast infinite oceanic spiritual planes of Beingness? Miracles are a wonderful idea,and no doubt make us feel special,after all God suspended his lawful intent just for me?? I myself like the idea of them,but alas I also know that they are fairy stories that can give comfort to children,but we are all grown up now are we not! regards michael.

MIRACLES,

Because i know of a higher spiritual law that allows miracles to happen - does that negate the miracle that happened - because i know of the higher law is a miracle no longer a miracle ?

To the vast majority who do not know of the higher spiritual law a miracle is a miracle - because one knows of these laws does that mean that a miracle is not a miracle - NO, it simply means that miracles are not miraculous events that very rarely occur - but that they are a factual part of life that can become normal every day occurances.

This in no way negates the fact of the miracle per se.

The miracle per se is not denied - that it cannot be a regular occurance is denied - that it can be a regular occurance does not deny that it per se is a miracle.

What we are discussing here is not whether an occurance is outside of natural law - what we are discussing is whether or not it was Divine Intervention that suspended the natural law. Divine Intervention in this physical-material world --- which is functioning under the natural "Law of Karma" or "As You Sow - So Shall You Reap" --- IS A MIRACLE !

Miracles in fact are proof that God does exists - to deny miracles is to deny God who is performing the miracle ! ! ! ! !

Michael, Re your remarks about miracles,

QUOTE " I myself like the idea of them, but alas I also know that they are fairy stories that can give comfort to children, but we are all grown up now are we not." END QUOTE

I personally find this statement very disturbing - are we not told that we must become as little children - to enter into the Kingdom of God ? ? ? ? ?

It was my belief and trust in God that allowed Him to perform His miracle through me. If that means that i am a little child and i am not all grown up now - then, i am a little child who believes in miracles and the Unconditional Love of God to forgive us and suspend natural law - and i pray that i never grow up if it means losing that belief in miracles and the God of Unconditional Love who performs them through us when we turn to Him.

Miracles per se are proof that God exists - to deny the miracles that Divine Intervention produces - is to deny God who produced them through His Intervention ! ! ! ! !

Without miracles whatever the kind - whether experiences of rising above body consciousness - or experiences of Divine Intervention healing dis-ease - or whatever - where is the proof that God exists without some form of miracle that suspends natural law ?

QUOTE Michael, "A miracle as i understand it, implies a suspension of natural law, for this "event" to occur! And as natural laws are perfect and absolute in operation, this cannot EVER happen! END QUOTE

This comment shows a complete misunderstanding of natural law as it relates to spiritual law - although the "Law of Karma" as natural law may be perfect in its operation-it definitely in no way shape or form is absolute!

On one hand you say that there is a higher spiritual law that we do not encounter very often, that comes into play and manifests itself, and on the other hand you say that "a miracle as you understand it, implies a suspension of natural law, for this "event" to occur! You then go on and say, "And as natural laws are perfect and absolute in operation, this cannot EVER happen"! What are you saying here ? - does higher spiritual law suspend natural law or does it not ? ? ? ? ?

Well michael, perhaps you can explain what occurs when the higher spiritual law comes into play and manifests itself ? Is not the manifestation of a higher spiritual law per se a suspension of natural law where it occurs ?

This is not a matter of who is right or wrong - this is a matter of information reflecting Truth.

Miracles as the Divine Intervention of the Unconditional Love of God is the hope of a helpless humanity dying in the loss of the ability to help itself !

[mkirkpatrick]

William,Infinite Consciousness,as this thread seems aimed at me then I will respond,but
I would most respectfully suggest that this could have been done via a private message.
as I am apt to feel that this could be seen as inappropriate,as it seems very personal
and directed toward me!

The only thing I disagree with William is the word "miracle"and I have succinctly explained the reason why in mylast post.What I do accept is that great and wonderful spiritual events do occur,and that some of these may well include "spontaneous remission"I went on also to say that i have also been witness to such wonderful and uplifting events,where we differ William is in the explantion of the event,you see a miracle,I see the working of
natural (spiritual) laws,albeit those of a nature that as yet in our stage of development
are very rarely witnessed.


I feel that I have answered you as honestly as I can William,we may well have to agree
to differ on this one.


regards michael.

[Mr. Nobody]

The root of miracles, the source from which the fairy tales were spun, only present a temporay lack of the observer's understanding for the fundamental laws that govern all nature, without exception.
Miracles are being propagated to advance a religious agenda and most often include the pacification of sufferers in order to support and justify the existence of said religious establishments.
Once you open the door to miracles, even if only for a crack, truth and understanding becomes inconsequental.......

[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick William,Infinite Consciousness,as this thread seems aimed at me then I will respond,but I would most respectfully suggest that this could have been done via a private message. as I am apt to feel that this could be seen as inappropriate,as it seems very personal and directed toward me! The only thing I disagree with William is the word "miracle"and I have succinctly explained the reason why in mylast post.What I do accept is that great and wonderful spiritual events do occur,and that some of these may well include "spontaneous remission"I went on also to say that i have also been witness to such wonderful and uplifting events,where we differ William is in the explantion of the event,you see a miracle,I see the working of natural (spiritual) laws,albeit those of a nature that as yet in our stage of development are very rarely witnessed. I feel that I have answered you as honestly as I can William,we may well have to agree to differ on this one. regards michael.

Michael,

Read Mr.Nobodys post and see how your position reinforces his comment that " Once you open the door to miracles, even if only for a crack, truth and understanding becomes inconsequental".......

Do you want your position to reinforce such a lack of understanding and denial of truth - well that is what you are doing whether you understand it or want it or not.

You posted your false comments about miracles for everyone to see - why should i post my response in a private message ?

Your comment that, "Miracles are fairy stories that give comfort to children, but we are all grown up now are we not!", is very disturbing to me i have lost respect for you because of this - i am one of those children who believe in God and not only believes in miracles but has experieced them as fact - your words now have an empty ring to them - i do not sense any real content in them - you are by your comments reinforcing the materialists that are destroying our beautiful blue planet.

[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody The root of miracles, the source from which the fairy tales were spun, only present a temporay lack of the observer's understanding for the fundamental laws that govern all nature, without exception. Miracles are being propagated to advance a religious agenda and most often include the pacification of sufferers in order to support and justify the existence of said religious establishments. Once you open the door to miracles, even if only for a crack, truth and understanding becomes inconsequental.......

Mr. Nobody - "As You thinK - So You Become." Is that to hard for you to understand. We create our reality by what we believe ! WAKE UP ! ! !

[Mr. Nobody]

IC:
I am 100% content with who I am and appreciate your concerns.
If you need to believe in miracles than go ahead. I just don't understand why you are looking for a TOE? God should suffice!

[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody IC: I am 100% content with who I am and appreciate your concerns. If you need to believe in miracles than go ahead. I just don't understand why you are looking for a TOE? God should suffice!

Mr.Nobody,
You are right in that God should suffice because God is the T.O.E. I am not looking for a T.O.E. i have found it. I am trying to share it and i had the impression ( which is getting weaker now ) that ToeQuest represents people whose sole purpose is to find the T.O.E.

When a person finds and merges in Truth i.e. the T.O.E. he/she then has a responsibility to tell - to quote the Spiritual Masters, "If you know you have a duty to tell."

I have in one post explained the problem between relativity or Newtonian
physics and Quantum physics and how it is resolved as well as what gravity is i.e. its cause and effects but no one seems to realize or understand what is said there.

In brief, " Energy exists in the core of every atom in the form of vibrations. All existence, all matter whether liquid, solid or gaseous, are vibrating packets of Light & Sound. That Light & Sound is conscious and is the source of all consciousness. Quantum physics recognizes this scientific fact."

Likewise, the same vibrations of light & sound is a basic constituent of the soul (i.e. consciousness) and can be experienced with the help and guidance of a competent spiritual teacher who has reached the soul's full potential. Within us is a divine spirit from which our intelligence and wisdom is derived. "The process of acesssing that inner divine spirit, intelligence and wisdom is called meditation."

If we unify science and spirituality (i.e. consciousness) and if we transform knowledge to wisdom by meditating and experiencing the driving force behind all existence (i.e. conscious spirit) then we have the key to human unity. Right here in this post under our very noses is the T.O.E. Does any one here recognize or understand it ? ? ? ? ?

This experience will transform our individual life and the lives of those around us. These individual transformation will ultimately bring unity and peace at the community, national and global levels.

This is the T.O.E. can you dig it ? ? ? ? ?

[Mr. Nobody]

In my lonely hours of reflections and meager research I have come across similar material but taken to different conclusions.
I agree about matter being nothing more than phases of energy (matter or ether), solidified if you will, not unlike ice forms out of water when it freezes. I venture to say that the primordial ether combined into atoms as the temperature fell enough to allow bonds to last. Particles to me are waves in the ether and the particles attributes represent a description of this ether wave.
And them we diverge. The unique properties of our fundamental forces and particles are simply the result of a selective process of what produced an observer. There could (should) be an infinite amount of multiverses with other properties, each of them with or without observers, wondering about existence or not
I do not believe in a divine spirit. I believe in emergence of local order out of simplicity (driven by gravity that opposes expansion to maintain an entropy equilibrium) Basically it is like this:
You build a car, but you will never predict how this car behaves, by looking at its constituents. It will assume unique attributes on its own, based on environmental influences, expertise of the workmanship and utility. The emerging attributes of the car are its character, unique and distinguishable from other cars. It appears as though your car possess a soul (no need to explain further, anybody who ever owned a used car, can relate). Complexity born out of emerging, unpredictable behaviors disguise as personalities. And before you ask me whether a soul is DRIVING the car, please truly attempt to understand my analogy:
We are not autonom. We developed and function within the confines of a society that evolved over millions of years of apes interaction with each other and staring at patterns to enable us cars to drive on our own. Without a highly developed society we would have remained the ape that we are.

[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody In my lonely hours of reflections and meager research I have come across similar material but taken to different conclusions. I agree about matter being nothing more than phases of energy (matter or ether), solidified if you will, not unlike ice forms out of water when it freezes. I venture to say that the primordial ether combined into atoms as the temperature fell enough to allow bonds to last. Particles to me are waves in the ether and the particles attributes represent a description of this ether wave. And them we diverge. The unique properties of our fundamental forces and particles are simply the result of a selective process of what produced an observer. There could (should) be an infinite amount of multiverses with other properties, each of them with or without observers, wondering about existence or not I do not believe in a divine spirit. I believe in emergence of local order out of simplicity (driven by gravity that opposes expansion to maintain an entropy equilibrium) Basically it is like this: You build a car, but you will never predict how this car behaves, by looking at its constituents. It will assume unique attributes on its own, based on environmental influences, expertise of the workmanship and utility. The emerging attributes of the car are its character, unique and distinguishable from other cars. It appears as though your car possess a soul (no need to explain further, anybody who ever owned a used car, can relate). Complexity born out of emerging, unpredictable behaviors disguise as personalities. And before you ask me whether a soul is DRIVING the car, please truly attempt to understand my analogy: We are not autonom. We developed and function within the confines of a society that evolved over millions of years of apes interaction with each other and staring at patterns to enable us cars to drive on our own. Without a highly developed society we would have remained the ape that we are.

Mr.Nobody, you cannot truly believe in a divine spirit until you experience it and how can you experience it until you have some belief that it does in fact exist and you then meditate in order to meet it and merge back in it.

The effort to find and merge in it is the price that we need to pay to have access to it - we cannot get it by our efforts - but God in His Infinite Unconditional Love sees our feeble attempts to reach Him and He in His Unconditional Love has Mercy on us - forgives us - dries all our tears - and takes us His Prodigal Sons and Daughters back Home where we belong.

PROPHECY
" This is humanities true future have no doubt about it - this prophesy will come to be - nothing in this or any other world can stop it - nothing ever has - and nothing ever will - only our own human ignorance and blindness has slowed it down and subjected it to time - the time we ourselves are creating."

[Mr. Nobody]

Mr.Nobody, you cannot truly believe in a divine spirit until you experience it and how can you experience it until you have some belief that it does in fact exist

So, in order to perceive something I have to belief in it first?
That is not how reality works. Perceptions first, explanations next, interpretations, conjecture and exterpolations last.
What you propose is akin to religion, a belief in something first and then a search to find proof to support this something

"A world, a reality existing independantly of what can be said about it, is void of any meaning. It is obvious that any property or feature of reality "out there" can only be based on information we receive. There can not be any statement whatsoever about the world or about reality that is not based on such information. It therefore follows that the concept of a reality without at least the ability in principle to make statements about it, to obtain information about its features is devoid of any possibility of confirmation or proof. This implies that the distinction between information, that is knowledge, and reality is devoid of any meaning. In other words, it is impossible to distinguish operationally in any way reality from information. Therefore, following Occam's razor, the notion of the two being distinct should be abandoned, as the assumption of the existence of such a difference does not add anything that could not also be obtained without it"