Will science ever recognize enlightnement?

[yossarian]

If *Re-alization or Enlightenment is our ultimate destination as the brightest in the wisdom traditions suggest, will science ever back this up, or is this too far out of sciences grasp?

Ken Wilber does a pretty good job imo, though he certainly has some criritcs. I don't have the patience to comb through every criticism he has had, though I have yet to see one that eliminated his developmental model of spirit journey through matter back to spirit.

Feel free to play around with this if you like, I love this topic in all its forms...

Only Breath
Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion
or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up
from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,
am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any
origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.
I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,
first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.

Rumi

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks yossarian,yes I think that science will indeed recognize enlightenment,and moreover I think that this day is not too far of,in fact within the next five years,I will
predict that mainstream science will not only embrace this concept,but will fully accept
the implications that follow on from this.



regards michael.

[yossarian]

Thanks yossarian,yes I think that science will indeed recognize enlightenment,and moreover I think that this day is not too far of,in fact within the next five years,I will
predict that mainstream science will not only embrace this concept,but will fully accept
the implications that follow on from this.



regards michael.

That would be wonderful indeed. I hope you're right...

how did I ruin Rumi's poem?

2nd try:

Only Breath

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu
Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion

or cultural system. I am not from the East
or the West, not out of the ocean or up

from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
composed of elements at all. I do not exist,

am not an entity in this world or in the next,
did not descend from Adam and Eve or any

origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
of the traceless. Neither body or soul.

I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
worlds as one and that one call to and know,

first, last, outer, inner, only that
breath breathing human being.

Rumi

before we recognize the inevitability of our path to enlightenment, what sort of developments in what kind of fields are most in need do you think?

Will physics have any sort of roll in this, or will this be strictly the social or developmental sciences?

do all paths lead to realization?

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks again Rumi.Do all paths lead to enlightenment,yes I believe they do,some by there very nature may speed up the process,but if one persists,the end result will be
some what illuminating.



regards michael.

[yossarian]

Thanks again Rumi.Do all paths lead to enlightenment,yes I believe they do,some by there very nature may speed up the process,but if one persists,the end result will be
some what illuminating.



regards michael.

I'm sorry, perhaps you thought I signed my name Rumi. I was only trying to give credit to the author of the poem that I posted above, ~ Mevlana Rumi, 13th century sufi poet and mystic.

my actual name is yossarian, I only steal the words of wise men in the hopes it makes me think for myself.

more:

"

We are the mirror as well as the face in it.
We are tasting the taste this minute
of eternity. We are pain
and what cures pain, both. We are
the sweet, cold water and the jar that pours.

"

-- Jelaluddin Rumi

[austintorn@aol.com]

“Rumi” Meets The Lama
___________________


Well, a long, long time ago, I climbed the Himalayas and complained to the Dali Lama up there in Tibet that life was hell. He said “Get lost! Go make a heaven of hell and then me tell. The door is never shut on the prison cell, so, why would you ever stay inside?”

Well, I will return there, someday, some year, saying “Hello Dali, I bring you some tales of heaven on earth—of my friend, in whose fragrance I am now drenched, one who could even tell Life how to live.”

Well, do wonders never cease—our New Hamburg Cafe, my “office”, has closed, but, its Garden of Peace and Serenity, surrounded on three sides by 30-foot rocks, the “Himalayas”, is still open, and, anyway, it’s time to move my “office” outdoors, not that I would ever do any W-O-R-K there, for that is a four-letter word to a retired person.

The Cafe was an American-Korean restaurant recently, run by Sin-Ha and Su-Nee, but, before that, it was run by (and is still owned by) the Buddhists, mostly by the Buddha Girls from the monastery on Shafe Road, home to one of only two Lamas in the entire United States, and the only Lama on the east coast.

The Cafe was called “Himalayas on the Hudson” and the Lama often came to eat there, with his entourage of higher-ups and bodyguards. Because I was there often, as well, I got to know the Lama, his bodyguards soon retreating, and I taught him how to do high fives and low fives and such and so we we began to talk about the connectedness that underlies all things, the reaching of which state through the removal of all thoughts during meditation is the very heart of Buddhism.

In addition, I always gave him the weather for the rest of the day and for the next day, always saying that it would become sunny if it was raining, and that it would be still sunny if it was already sunny. And if it was really raining forever, we both knew that it was sunny on the inside.

I remember, thinking upon first meeting him that “here he is”, the great one, and so I have a chance to ask a deep question of him without having to go over to Tibet or India and climb up a mountain, so, I pointed to an article in the newspaper that said “We may never know who won the Presidential election, Bush or Gore” and I asked him for his wisdom on the matter. Well, he thought for only a second or two and said “Who cares!”, and such it sunk into me later that this was a great wisdom, indeed.

The Cafe workers, the Buddha girls, didn’t wear the flowing gold and reddish robes that the visiting Buddhists wore, but wore regular clothes and had long hair, and many of the hectic type customers, unknowing of this, wondered at the peace and joy that the workers radiated like some sort of serenity field, and I suppose these workers were chosen for their outgoingness as well.

I talked with them about string theory, the theory that the differing vibrations of really small strings gives rise to all of the elementary particles and forces, and, so, we related this to all that is absolute and fundamental beneath this projection of reality in which we live out our life-dream.

Buddhism is not a religion, but a way of life, and they can still have friends, outside jobs, sex, and whatfor, although some of them spend a lot of time on the inner world which, like meditation, can only be described as “not what you think”.

So, miracles of miracles, today, after saying good-bye to the Koreans at the Cafe and taking home 50 eggs and many bags of chocolate chip cookies, I went back to the Cafe garden to sit under an umbrella table in the rain, and there was the old Lama himself, just sitting there alone, having just shown the building to someone who might lease it.

I hadn’t seen him in 6 months, for he had been off to other continents. He gave me a medium high five and I told him that the sun would be out tomorrow, and that it was always sunny on the inside. Then I told the Lama about the one who had recently sprung into another level of being, literally by “dying into life” and saying to him: She blossoms, so colorfully, like a spring flower, because the energy was in the bulb all along, deep within her, life’s music wanting to sing through her, and, so, now it has begun.

He nodded for me to continue.

There, on some remoter shore of human soul
To which I helped restore life and spirit,
I learned that love was the only flame that lit
This life—for she had taught me how to give it.

What once I was has dimmed, physically,
But, I am a star, still bright in the night,
Though, when the sun rises, I disappear into her.
For no one looks for the stars when the sun is out.

No, I did not just disappear—I am just completely soaked in her qualities.

Now I drink from her spring of eternal youth.

Do I feel some memory of elsewhere?
Do I dare to look toward the setting sun?
No, I’ll pretend that it’s coming up.
It shines through me, illuminating me.

I am reenergized.
I am glowing bright.
I am becoming a supernova.

There is a longing,
Between Body and Soul,
That reassures us
When we go with the flow,
And tugs at us when we don’t. . .

That is the mind within the mind.

I drink the very wine that moves me.
I freely let life’s spirit play through me.
I live its rhythm and music.

Life, though anguishing sometimes,
Must be lived fully,
For that is all we have.

The world crashes, out there,
But the flowers grow, in here.
For I am the garden.

(And the Lama said to me):
“Rumi lives.”

“Yes”, I answered, “Rumi lives again in the heart of his friend. I just read a book on him and so I am quoting him.”

“He never left—it is him, and you, too.”

“His spirit wanders ‘long the Milky Way,
With an houri, life’s moments drank away
In some sweet wood far from the noise of day—
Where with her he yet lives, sings, laughs, and plays.”

“What do we seek?”

“We long for the source—the human soul turns inward to find its way home.”

“Why do we wander around in the middle of the night?”

“Well, if I knew the answer to that, I would have been home hours ago.”

“Where would that be?”

“I don’t know. Whoever brought me here will have to take me home.”

“How do we see this “home”?”

“Close both eyes, to see with the other eye.”

“How do we hear of it?”

“Listen—the blossoms drop their blessings all around.”

“What quenches our thirst?”

“Break the wineglass, and fall toward the glassblower’s breath.”

“Why?”

“We are the sweet cold water and the jar that pours it.”

“Where is the Light?”

“There is a light seed grain inside you. You fill it with yourself, or it dies.”

“Where do we go, do we climb mountains—the Himalayas?”

“A mountain is but a tiny piece of a piece of straw blown off into emptiness.”

“And what of her, your beloved?”

“There is a window open between us, mixing the night airs of our beings.”

“How’s that?”

“Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I meet her there.”

“And then do we see the light of day?”

“This day that I seek is outside of living and dying.”

“Do we not tire, always walking and looking?”

“At first, I did, yes, but then came a moment of feeling the wings I’d grown, lifting.

“We fly?”

“The rhythm lifts me—the living music plays through me.”
“From. . .?”

“It was fully fashioned even before it came into being, like an idea.”

“What do we feast on?”

“I am tasting the taste of eternity this minute.”

“Are we not afraid.”

“I have long since wet my robe in the shallow water. Now, I dive deeper, under, and naked under, and deeper under the surf. The drop becomes the Ocean.”


(Some months passed, and, later, upon return, after a long time, and seeing the Lama once again.)

“Where have you been?” asked the Lama of me.

“Well, everywhere, and nowhere. I did not cease from exploration, and after all my exploring I have returned to the place that I started from, but now I know the place for the first time.”

[yossarian]

Thank you Austin, that was great!

yo

[Infinite Consciousness]

UNLIMITED WISDOM

By looking inward, we go to the source of wisdom from which all outer knowledge is derived. We may think of wisdom as the state attained by someone who has the highest degree, or someone who has lived through many of life's experience, but these are a drop of water in the ocean of eternal wisdom.

If we took all the books ever written in this world and put them together in one library, they would constitute but a child's primer to the eternal wisdom.

The following story illustrates the difference between worldly knowledge and eternal wisdom. This incidence took place when the great scholar Jalaluddin Rumi met his master, the Sufi saint Shamas-i Tabriz.

One day, as Rumni sat by the side of a shallow pool studying some rare manuscripts, Shamas-i Tabriz approached him. Seeing that Rum, the great professor, was lost in study, Tabriz pointed to the manuscript and asked, "what is this?" Looking up at the unkempt visitor, Rumi replied, "It is knowledge that is beyond the comprehension of the unlearned."

Tabriz picked the book and tossed it into the water. The professor cried out in shock, "Uncouth dervish ! What have you done ? Through your thoughtless act, the world has lost a treasure house of knowledge." Tabriz reached down to the bottom of the pool and pulled out the manuscript, dry and undamaged. Rumi exclaimed in amazement, "What is this?" Tabriz smiled and said, "It is knowledge born of ecstasy, that is beyond the comprehension of the learned."

Our mind's comprehension is limited; but the soul's comprehension is infinite. When we look inward, we can reach the state of all-consciousness where we, too, can know everything there is to be known and can be fed from within by the knowledge born of ecstasy.

[r.p.bibra]

ic;ls loves the way you 'dive' into your depths. one day you will certainly find the 'jewel' which is ever-effulgent& you are 'aware' of Its shine day and night.regards.ls.

[yossarian]

InfiniteConsciousness, you're preaching to the choir!