There is no god

[SteveA]

Steve, please provide proof of "concept"; otherwise, no go.

Done deal. How about you answer a question, and stick with something consistently for me.

Q: What is physically seen when looking at darkness?

For those whose eye can't see itself: look in a mirror to see the reflected photons.

So is the eye simply a little surface that encompasses a small area of the visual field?! I thought the eye contained a ton of other attributes. Now you're trying to say it's holographic?

Mel, glad to hear that you and all of us have actual, real brain cells (except for Steve!).

Ok, so now instead of using any of yours you prefer to degrade to insults? At least you're zealous! (Or am I suppose to assume the comment was not intended to be an insult?)

[austintorn@aol.com]

You know that I don't insult. Just humor of the fact stated that you and Mel disagree.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The eye is not holographic; it takes in photons coming off the mirror; then visual systems process the patterns and so forth.

[austintorn@aol.com]

When looking into darkness, not many photons come in (we can detect as few as 3-5 photons), so the scene is mostly the absence of light; this gets interpreted as black.

[SteveA]

Ok, glad to hear that the lack of brain cells comment wasn't meant as an insult. I get confused sometimes.

The eye is not holographic; it takes in photons coming off the mirror; then visual systems process the patterns and so forth.

But you're not being consistent here. You said that the eye is what is seen in a mirror. Now you're trying to say it is not really that but something else ... and I see some references to mental concepts like visual information fields and pattern matching etc. which appears much closer to the form of vision I that I've been referring to as conscious perceptions and not arising from anything physically observed.

On to the next one ...

When looking into darkness, not many photons come in (we can detect as few as 3-5 photons), so the scene is mostly the absence of light; this gets interpreted as black.

Does this "interpretation as black" occur via. some physical mechanism? If so, can you describe any form of energy or other mechanism which is capable of presenting this lack of photons?

If I'm to understand you correctly, you're saying that we can actually witness objects that transmit no physical energy!

Yes, this is important ... do we truly witness phenomenon consciously that have no physical energy associated with them and are not bound to limitations of light speed communication in space?

(No, there's no way the conventional explanations will be able to get around this one either, though go ahead and tell me the next step of the conventional storyline)

P.S. Thank you again Melanie for sharing your insights!

[austintorn@aol.com]

I'm saying that one's eye can be seen in a mirror, not that an eye is what is seen in a mirror.

(The brain has post processing visual systems: I-IV)


We don't witness lack of energy; it just gets interpreted as black, which I suppose can indeed serve as a witness that no visible energy is coming in.

[SteveA]

I'm saying that one's eye can be seen in a mirror, not that an eye is what is seen in a mirror.

Let's be very careful of context here. You said both 1) "one's eye can be seen in a mirror" as well as 2) "not that an eye is what is seen in a mirror"

I'm confused - is it that "an eye" and "one's eye" are different objects? I don't understand why one is seen in a mirror and the other not.

(The brain has post processing visual systems: I-IV)

We don't witness lack of energy;

Isn't the eye not seeing any external energy when it is not receiving photons?

it just gets interpreted as black,

So we perceive things via a mechanism called "interpretation" that allows us to experience properties of space that have no photons or energy associated with them? Isn't that like a belief system? Sort of pseudo science stuff like believing in ghosts or other undetectable things like souls or minds etc.?

(Anytime you want the answers, just ask. I'll let you swim on your own for now )

which I suppose can indeed serve as a witness that no visible energy is coming in.

So we can indeed witness non-energies. Thank you. I'll consider that case closed, if you'd like or you can continue to try to defend yourself ... up to you. If you believe you'll feel like "humoring" again anytime soon, we should continue until the conflict in that area is resolved.

[austintorn@aol.com]

If you want to see your own eye, you can see it by looking in a mirror.


If you want to see mostly no photons, close your eyelids. Darkness appears.


Yes, the brain interprets and represents (re-presents), putting a face-lift on the photons coming in from out there by decoding the qualities. That is its job. "Light" is a part of the better face that is put upon "out there", this qualia existing in its "light" form only inside the head, as, too, with the other senses, like air vibration to sound, molecule shapes to smell, etc.

[SteveA]

If you want to see your own eye, you can see it by looking in a mirror.

But which eye is that? You're talking in circles, Austin. Here's what you said. I need clarification!

I'm saying that one's eye can be seen in a mirror

not that an eye is what is seen in a mirror.

Can, or cannot the eye be seen in a mirror? ... or which eye specifically are you referring to? The 1) one that sees or the 2) one that is seen?

You can opt out anytime you want or revert to name calling etc. The choice is yours. If you want to stick to pure logic and science, you're welcome to stick with me and see a bit clearer what is not being presented by conventional science.

If you want to see mostly no photons, close your eyelids. Darkness appears.

How are non-photons seen?

If I put a photometer inside a dark box, what is it measuring?

Yes, the brain interprets and represents (re-presents), putting a face-lift on the photons coming in from out there by decoding the qualities.

Ok, I could find lots of problems with that as well, but I'm only referring to "darkness" right now - no-photons. Can the brain "face lift" no energy?

What would the conventional storyline say was truly being seen? Shouldn't something with no physical energy be non-observable?

That is its job. "Light" is a part of the better face that is put upon "out there", this qualia existing in its "light" form only inside the head, as, too, with the other senses, like air vibration to sound, molecule shapes to smell, etc.

Ok, we're getting closer. But what physical process can convert something with no physical energy into a conscious qualia? Shouldn't it be impossible to have conscious perception without energy?

[austintorn@aol.com]

You can opt out anytime you want or revert to name calling etc — Steve

Your're still not getting it; I don't do name calling. I discuss ideas.