[JAK]

Originally Posted by Felix Schrodinger Dear Jak ... Spin is still enigmatic for me. I feel that it is related to to the helical nature of the waveform but can't explain it. There is lots more already on this site about helical waveforms. If you are postulating that spin depends on the direction then we should look at this. ...

Please forgive my pun in the title. This is actually a serious thread which started from ProfPat's "An Idea" thread. The idea herein was somewhat "off-topic" from ProfPat's, so I am restarting it here as a separate thread. Felix suggested I do some research about waveforms on TOEquest. So, I am soliciting assistance with such investigation. Here is the situation:

1. Fractals (objects from Chaos Theory/Mandelbrot) share a concept of being "self-similar". Basically, some pattern appears at both the smallest level and the grandest level of a fractal object. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory and the Lorenz Attractor for an example.)

2. If the universe is based upon a few laws, these must manifest at both the micro and macro scale. In other words, the universe will likely be self-similar. As a result, examining the largest scale objects of the universe may lead to insights about the smallest scale of the universe - particle physics.

3. A common notion in both particle physics and astrophysics is "spin" or "rotation". And orbital motions seem closely related. Given 1 and 2 above, then understanding spin/rotation of large objects may elucidate the realm of particle physics.

4. On a macro scale, spiraling appears to occur perpendicularly to some flow of energized phenomena:
4a. Aurora Borealis -

Typically the aurora appears either as a diffuse glow or as "curtains" that approximately extend in the east-west direction. ... Each curtain consists of many parallel rays, each lined up with the local direction of the magnetic field lines, suggesting that aurora is shaped by Earth's magnetic field. Indeed, satellites show electrons to be guided by magnetic field lines, spiraling around them while moving towards Earth. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_(astronomy)

4b. Low pressure weather systems (northern hemisphere) have cyclonic air movement around a central column of warm are rising upwards to higher levels of the atmosphere. Meanwhile, high pressure weather systems (northern hemisphere) have clockwise air movement around a column of downward falling cooler air.

5. On a micro scale, spin continues to be an enigma (http://dnp.nscl.msu.edu/current/spin.pdf).

QUESTION: If spinning on a macro scale disguises some perpendicular force, does spinning at a micro scale similarly disguise some perpendicular force? If so, could this perpendicular force hidden within the sub-atomic particle be a "string" (String Theory)? If not, could the hidden force be related to EMR in another way?

[Graybeard]

Good points Jak.

On a broad level I tend to agree with Points 1. and 2. and 3. And fractals are a good example for your explanation.

Points 4a and 4b are more locally related to the fact that the earth is rotating and the earths magnetic field is wavering (shimmering) as it is dragged with the rotation. In large magnetic fields such as the Sun this is clearly displayed.

I don't know that point 5 can be compared to Macro spin.

Good ideas and food for thought!

cool bananas ... greg

[JAK]

Originally Posted by Graybeard Good points Jak. On a broad level I tend to agree with Points 1. and 2. and 3. And fractals are a good example for your explanation. Points 4a and 4b are more locally related to the fact that the earth is rotating and the earths magnetic field is wavering (shimmering) as it is dragged with the rotation. In large magnetic fields such as the Sun this is clearly displayed. I don't know that point 5 can be compared to Macro spin. Good ideas and food for thought! cool bananas ... greg

Thanks, Greg.

Your response to #5 is what stuck in the back of my mind. The term "spin", as applied to sub-atomic particles, might not be a good description of the phenomena observed - only convenient as a label for some aspect observed/inferred.

However, #5 brings up an interesting philosophical idea: how can any force be localized/particalized if not via spinning?

Thoughts?

[PoPpAScience]

Hi JAK;

For over a month now I have been spending my free time rereading the world of the subatomic world, with the "Vortex" being at the centre of my mind, as the root cause of the spin factor. As you have stated above, about the macro world giving incites to the possable mechanics of the micro world. I have taken the most dynamic aspect of the macro world, the "Vortex", and applied it to the micro world.

I am working everyday now on some good idea's for adding the Vortex to the subatomic world. Unfortunatly this is my money making season and my time is limited right now, or I would be on here more, expressing my Idea's on the Vorticle force.

Here is just one of the many Idea's I am having right now: measuring-sub-atomic-vortex.

I have many more in the works right now, some of them very exciting to me.

[dleviwing]

Hi Jak;
We need to be aware that spin like all other physics terms are based on the measure of a phenomena. The literal interpretation of spin is “angular momentum” but the quantum spin refers to the state of a particles intrinsic parity, polarization, or some other such term. The quark structure of the protons and neutrons are interpretations of data resulting from accelerator experiments; we only know the status of the pieces after they collide, not while they are part of the particle. Having said that now let’s make another interpretation of the pieces.

The spin (angular momentum) of a particle produces what is called a magnetic moment so magnetism is one of the measured properties; the other is charge or electrical property. The electrical property is analogous to your weather model of “H” and “L”; the air density of the “L” is denser than the air density of the “H” and thus producing a deferential in air density that is analogous to the voltage or electrical potential between particles with a property of charge. This would indicate that a negatively charged particle has a low spatial density whereas a positively charge particle has a high spatial density. This indicates that the negative quark is actually a low density shell structured particle (“H”) that confines the positive quarks (“L”) within it. This analogy can apply to all real particle phenomena but must be analogous to the peaks and troths of waves for all boson / photon particles.

I hope this gives you a better visualization of the microscopic world.

[JAK]

Originally Posted by dleviwing ... The literal interpretation of spin is “angular momentum” but the quantum spin refers to the state of a particles intrinsic parity, polarization, or some other such term. ...

"In physics, the angular momentum of an object rotating about some reference point is the measure of the extent to which the object will continue to rotate about that point unless acted upon by an external torque. In particular, if a point mass rotates about an axis, then the angular momentum with respect to a point on the axis is related to the mass of the object, the velocity and the distance of the mass to the axis." - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

Originally Posted by dleviwing The quark structure of the protons and neutrons are interpretations of data resulting from accelerator experiments; we only know the status of the pieces after they collide, not while they are part of the particle. ...

Sort of like looking at the debris field after a tornado struck to determine its intensity - F3, F4, etc. (Tornadoes hold potential for any discussion of vortices which I'm sure this thread is headed.)

I've reversed "H" and "L" in your analogy below. Warm air is less dense than cold air which is why a warm air mass floats over a cold air mass creating the charadteristics of a "warm front" as it overtakes the cold air mass. Also, when warm air pools and rotates, due to prevailing winds, it creates an area of low pressure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warm_front

Originally Posted by dleviwing The spin (angular momentum) of a particle produces what is called a magnetic moment so magnetism is one of the measured properties; the other is charge or electrical property. The electrical property is analogous to your weather model of “H” and “L”; the air density of the “L” is denser than the air density of the “H” and thus producing a deferential in air density that is analogous to the voltage or electrical potential between particles with a property of charge. This would indicate that a negatively charged particle has a low spatial density whereas a positively charge particle has a high spatial density. This indicates that the negative quark is actually a low density shell structured particle (“H”) that confines the positive quarks (“L”) within it. This analogy can apply to all real particle phenomena but must be analogous to the peaks and troths of waves for all boson / photon particles. I hope this gives you a better visualization of the microscopic world.

Thank You, David! Your analogy is exquisite in allowing me to visualize and understand the concepts.

Can we take the analogy further? If you have two (or more) air masses ("H") adjacent to each other having different densities and temperatures, some mixing/friction occurs - especially if they have strong and conflicting prevailing winds. As a result of this friction, it creates a whorl or swirling which becomes a low pressure center.

To carry this to the subatomic realm, if there are variations in densities of whatever is the underlying fabric of the universe, and the "flow of something" about these "density masses" is disturbed, then might the quark or other particle be the point of friction between 2 or 3 of the "density masses"?

In weather, a cold air mass has "fair skies" (few or no clouds). But the point where it abutts another air mass is where clouds and swirling develops. Suddenly, something visible is created. If the analogy works, then particles would essentially be pockets between invisible density masses. Plus, the high and low densities of the quarks would still have a central column acting as an axis for angular momentum.

(How are we doing here. My head hurts. Slap me around a bit.)

[dleviwing]

Hi JAK;
Cold air (“L”) whether it is clear skies or not is denser than warm air (“H”). I think you may have copied my text wrong as a quote so I corrected it. I know it’s tempting to view the “H” as the positive and the “L” as the negative in an analogy but it is just the opposite. “H” is low density core with high density boundary (large range system comparable to an electron) and “L” is a high density core with low density boundary (short range system comparable to a proton system). If you look close you can start to see cause of the strong and weak nuclear forces.

Though the macro world offers hints to the behavior of the micro world, they are extremely different. The micro world is highly influence by the behavior of symmetrical wave interactions at extremely high frequencies; the macro world is not.