[Profpat]

You always do just fine Greg, but you know that.

I don't know if Occams Razor is applicable here Greg, we still have the little matter of creation do deal with. If it was something from nothing than you might want to consider the Creator as a necessity, and therefore can not be eliminated. You'll have a stronger arguement if it turns out that it's something from something, which is what I believe. But even with that my faith would still be unshaken. For as I said faith transcends logic which is really what Occams Razor is all about.

Best to you my friend,

Pat

P.S. A bit off the subject but what is the Aborigines creation myth? To go older than the Genesis Chapter 1 story you have to go way back, Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc. The Mayans are children ~1,000 AD, compared to 1,000 BC. Now your Aboriginal tribes, thats another story ~40,0000 - 70,0000 BC.

[Graybeard]

I don't know if I would go so far as to agree that Faith transcends Logic ..

But I do agree that Occam's Razor doesn't really settle things.

For readers of this thread, the following is just for Pat and we know its off topic

You have asked me about the Aboriginal Creation myth before, and I apologise for sort of side stepping it. The fact is, its extremely difficult to put into words. Its called the Dreaming, and it has never stopped, just entered a new phase now that us white fellas are here.

All people partake of the Dreaming, even you and me, and I suppose it best translates as 'to see and understand the way'

The Dreamtime, which is part of the Dreaming, is considered the Time-before-Time or the Creation-Time.

This is the time when ancestral beings moved across the land. I suppose I will confuse you as I find it confusing myself at times, so here is a quote

The expression 'Dreamtime' is most often used to refer to the 'time before time', or 'the time of the creation of all things', while 'Dreaming' is often used to refer to an individual's or group's set of beliefs or spirituality. For instance, an Indigenous Australian might say that they have Kangaroo Dreaming, or Shark Dreaming, or Honey Ant Dreaming, or any combination of Dreamings pertinent to their 'country'. However, many Indigenous Australians also refer to the creation time as 'The Dreaming'. What is certain is that 'Ancestor Spirits' came to Earth in human and other forms and the land, the plants and animals were given their form as we know them today. These Spirits also established relationships between groups and individuals, (whether people or animals) and where they traveled across the land, or came to a halt, they created rivers, hills, etc., and there are often stories attached to these places. Once their work was done, the Ancestor Spirits changed again; into animals or stars or hills or other objects. For Indigenous Australians, the past is still alive and vital today and will remain so into the future. The Ancestor Spirits and their powers have not gone, they are present in the forms into which they changed at the end of the 'Dreamtime' or 'Dreaming', as the stories tell.

Where these spirits (they are often depicted as Anthromorphs) travelled are called Dreaming Paths. Mutawintji, where I recently visited, is an important place on one such path. Another is from south of Cobar to the Brewarrina Fish Traps. The Aboriginals follow these paths and perform acts and rituals, such as burning off the land, which play a vital role in the ecology of this continent.

In other words, their 'Faith' has a direct, unarguable, scientifically testable outcome, that sustains the plants and animals. One reason for this is that the flora and fauna have evolved to 'survive' or 'stay-in-tune-with' the Dreaming.

How each plant, animal, geographic feature, got its form is told in a Dreaming Story .... and there are thousands. For example, here is one that tells of the Dreaming Path from Cobar to Brewarrina which I have already mentioned and also in my 'early man' thread where there are photos from Mount Grenfell which are related to this story

Originally Posted by told by Aunty Beryl Carmichael This is the creation story of Ngiyaampaa country, as well as the land belonging to Eaglehawk and Crow. Now long, long time ago of course, in the beginning, when there was no people, no trees, no plants whatever on this land, "Guthi-guthi", the spirit of our ancestral being, he lived up in the sky. So he came down and he wanted to create the special land for people and animals and birds to live in. So Guthi-guthi came down and he went on creating the land for the people-after he'd set the borders in place and the sacred sights, the birthing places of all the Dreamings, where all our Dreamings were to come out of. Guthi-guthi put one foot on Gunderbooka Mountain and another one at Mount Grenfell. And he looked out over the land and he could see that the land was bare. There was no water in sight, there was nothing growing. So Guthi-guthi knew that trapped in a mountain-Mount Minara-the water serpent, Weowie, he was trapped in the mountain. So Guthi-guthi called out to him, "Weowie, Weowie", but because Weowie was trapped right in the middle of the mountain, he couldn't hear him. Guthi-guthi went back up into the sky and he called out once more, "Weowie", but once again Weowie didn't respond. So Guthi-guthi came down with a roar like thunder and banged on the mountain and the mountain split open. Weowie the water serpent came out. And where the water serpent travelled he made waterholes and streams and depressions in the land. So once all that was finished, of course, Weowie went back into the mountain to live and that's where Weowie lives now, in Mount Minara. But then after that, they wanted another lot of water to come down from the north, throughout our country. Old Pundu, the Cod, it was his duty to drag and create the river known as the Darling River today. So Cod came out with Mudlark, his little mate, and they set off from the north and they created the big river. Flows right down, water flows right throughout our country, right into the sea now. And of course, this country was also created, the first two tribes put in our country were Eaglehawk and Crow. And from these two tribes came many tribal people, many tribes, and we call them sub-groups today. So my people, the Ngiyaampaa people and the Barkandji further down are all sub-groups of Eaglehawk and Crow. So what I'm telling you-the stories that were handed down to me all come from within this country.

This story is older than Genesis, and it is probably relatively unchanged due to its simplicity, and therefore it is easily transmitted orally. Here is a link to more. Click

enjoy Pat .... greg

PS: If you go to the 'Early Man' thread, first post, second last photo ... you will see part of the 'Split Open Mountain' where 'Guthi-Guthi' banged on it. LOL ... I know it sounds funny, but if you were to visit Mt Grenfell it certainly has the appearance of being smashed to bits. Truly. LOL

greg

[Profpat]

Hello again Greg;

I’m sorry I meant MY faith in God transcends logic.

I believe Analog has logic as his God, and maybe science is David’s God. Do you have something you put first, or prime, Greg?

I think the start of man is applicable to this thread, which deals with the function or purpose of mankind. I think we need to delve into the beginning of mankind in order to understand his function.

The Aborigine creation story is very beautiful and addresses their world. Indeed we may all be in this dreamtime state as they believe.

It seems all creation stories have some things in common. They all believe in a Creator or Supreme Being, and they all appear to have steps or stages in this creation process.

It’s my belief however that the creation story as described by Genesis Ch.1 is the most scientifically accurate. I’m amazed that someone of that period would be so correct in the description of the process.
.
First we have the creation of the heavens, (small h, plural, fundamental substance). The Earth at this time was without form and void. We have the deep (void) and the waters (waves), and then we have the creation of light (which was created before the sun) How can you have light before the sun. HMMMM!

The next step is the creation of Heaven ( to me a particle formation, a firmament which seperates the waters(waves) )

Next is the creation of the Earth. (before the sun was FORMED and the moon) A NASA site has the sun still FORMING when the Earth was formed. Also the Earth is much more dense than the hydrogen and helium which make up our sun. A lot of iron, which suggest that we probably were formed from a super nova and not our sun. The original Earth had one big land mass and the rest was water. Something I believe the geologist agree with. Only later did we have continental drift.

Then the sun and moon were formed

Then the stages of life, which we already discussed.

Only recently has science addressed the stages of evolution as mentioned in Genesis. Only recently has science addressed the “Big Bang” creation. Only recently has science addressed that light was probably created right after spatial inflation.

Now you or anybody else may not be impressed but I am. Now this is no proof in a Deity only that whoever wrote Genesis Ch1 was very enlightened.

[Graybeard]

Prof ... I don't really have a God ... I believe in Evolution and I find it awesome and inspiring ... I suppose I am spiritual in my appreciation of the land around me.

You might like to check this link ... it appears that we are not part of the Milky Way at all, but have been swallowed by it.

cool bananas ... greg

PS: its midnite here and I am just finishing work ... catch ya later

[r.p.bibra]

greg,thanks for the link.love&regards.ls

[analog]

hello Greg,

I would have to agree with Pat about the importance of your post. The origins of mankind are indeed an important part of understanding our role/purpose.


If there is an underlying logic of form and function within our world; in my opinion, the role of mankind can therefore only truly be understood if we:

1. Acknowledge the universal framework that brought us forth, which will give us a universal direction and explain the mechanics (quantum, relativity, etc.).

2. Understand how that framework brought us forth by way of its mechanics and direction, which will give us the process of evolution and our origin.

3. Then, we'll perhaps understand "The Role of Mankind", and we'll achieve the enlightenment everyone likes to preach about around here; as it will then, and only then, be apparent how our everyday lives and actions contribute to the universal direction that all things must adhere to by way of the universal mechanics which adheres all things.


We'll be able to look past the pedestal we've placed ourselves on and the mirror that reflects our beloved images and understand that we are an equally important part of the mechanics and direction of this vast universe.

Perhaps, enlightenment isn't achievable by arrogance; but is better sought by humility.

Enlightenment isn't a spiritual journey for me; it's an acknowledgment of the physical interactions that make up our world and how we are an important part of those interactions; but if that allows some to feel better about themselves and their place in all this, then I guess it encompasses the spirit also.

As we all know, acknowledging the first one on the list is pretty tough, but I just feel as though to prescribe advice about enlightenment, when we haven't acknowledged what it is we are doing here, and how our actions affect that direction, is perhaps doing more harm than good. That's why I started this thread.

We may not all agree on the first one, but we can start below it and perhaps reverse engineer our way to a better understanding of it, if we ask ourselves the right questions.

I like your origin story of the Aborigines; I've never heard it before, and I think it represents their views of their origins and how that affects their role in their world. Thanks for sharing.


regards,

Tim


P.S. I wasn't directing any of this at you my friend; I feel we share similar beliefs; I was just adding to the thread.

[Profpat]

Hi Tim;

I guess I'm a bit confused as to what you are trying to discover.

"The purpose of this thread is to explore our function in this world, whereby perhaps we can better understand our needed form."

Our needed form is the form evolution has given us (i.e. we have two arms, and two legs, we stand upright, we have a mouth to eat with, eyes to see with, two ears to hear with, a nervous system to feel with, a nose to breath and smell with, a tongue to taste with, a large brain cavity and brain to think with, blood and a circulatory system, heart, lungs, etc etc. all because evolution says for the present this is the form we need.)

And this is why I'm confused and could use some guidance or direction as to what you are looking for in this thread.

Best to you,

Pat

P.S. If you are looking for enlightenment, is it physical, spiritual, mental, political, societal or some other form of enlightenment. Physical would probably relate to a TOE, spiritual would probably be Buddhism or Hinduism where you transcend the physical plane, etc.

[analog]

Originally Posted by Profpat Our needed form is the form evolution has given us (i.e. we have two arms, and two legs, we stand upright, we have a mouth to eat with, eyes to see with, two ears to hear with, a nervous system to feel with, a nose to breath and smell with, a tongue to taste with, a large brain cavity and brain to think with, blood and a circulatory system, heart, lungs, etc etc. all because evolution says for the present this is the form we need.) And this is why I'm confused and could use some guidance or direction as to what you are looking for in this thread.

Why is it that evolution saw fit to give us those attributes you are refering to?

It is obviously preparing us to do a job here; so what are we really doing with those attributes that we were so fortunate to develop?

My framework suggests that the universe is nothing more than a spectrum of frequencies of fundamental matter in motion, much like the current model of the electromagnetic spectrum, and with this I get a glimpse of what, in my opinion, our senses are actually doing. Each sensor (eyes, nose, ears, and touch) are actually tuned to a limitied amount of fundamental frequencies. This is already known about our eyes and ears, but the rest of our senses also acknowledge different ranges of motion frequencies of fundamental matter, being as massive formations (objects) are also frequency based. Our intelligence somehow processes this incoming info and directs us into action by way of the provided legs and arms, whereby we effect the frequencies we've been observing.

What are these actions really accomplishing, as it pertains to the whole?

Are the effects of our actions limited to this planet, or do they have a much more profound effect on the entire framework?

Just saying that evolution prepared us doesn't tell us much about what it prepared us for. What we are really doing with our eyes, ears, arms, brain, thoughts, etc. etc.. Even our intelligence seems to be governed by our function whereby we don't get much more than we need to do our job, in my opinion.

How does evolution know what to give us?

I'll admit, acknowledging our true role in all this isn't that much easier than acknowledging a ToE; it will require us to see how our everyday lives change the world before us, but if we don't understand this, then how can we suggest things such as: we are harming our planet. We don't know that unless we know our true role here. It could be our role here to do apparent harm, but I refuse to believe that a framework can produce a form which can do anything other than what it is supposed to do. In my opinion, we can't harm our world any more than we can sin against it, our souls, god, etc.

Originally Posted by Profpat P.S. If you are looking for enlightenment, is it physical, spiritual, mental, political, societal or some other form of enlightenment. Physical would probably relate to a TOE, spiritual would probably be Buddhism or Hinduism where you transcend the physical plane, etc.

I'm looking for total enlightenment Pat, the only kind that matters. In my opinion, it's all the same. This is how a ToE would relate all of those concepts you've mentioned. Our entire framework is physical, all of the others are just natures mechanism for blinding us from what we are truly here to do, whereby societies are built and Earth gets an overhaul.

does this help, or did I make it worse,

Tim

[Profpat]

I was thinking, maybe our purpose is to house the trillions of life forms which share our bodies.

I read where we have between 10 - 100 trillion cells in our bodies. I guess ~100 trillion bacteria in our large bowels. And than there is the little micro-animals on and in us.

Say Hi to Fred:


A microscopic mite Lorryia formosa.


I read where bacteria is the most diverse and abundant group of organisms on Earth.

Truly the meek shall inherit the Earth. And we need them for our survival, they don't need us.

How is that for humility Tim.

Best,

Pat

[analog]

Thanks for making me uncomfortable Pat.