The Role of Mankind

[analog]

Hey Greg,


I read your post on the other thread, and I feel the need to also further explain where I'm coming from, which you probably already know, but here goes anyway.

Of course, once we have reached this stage, for the very first time we have influence over our own destinies to a certain extent. We can alter our environment .... prior to this we were subject to our environment. Now it can be clearly shown that what we make, we make for a purpose.

But we, Homo Sapiens, along with Neanderthal, inherited this (toolmaking) from Homo Heidelbergensis, who inherited it from Home Ergaster, who inherited it from Homo Habilus (Handyman). These were species that preceded us and left us their legacy, they were not Human but Hominids.

My views of evolution come from my interpretations of our universal framework, and its direction that I contemplate. I tend to speak from a very broad view sometimes; it’s a bad habit of mine.

In my opinion, life evolves when the purely physical interactions of the universal system can no longer accomplish the needed direction by means of instantaneous cause and effect. Galaxies, stars, and planets can form by simple fundamental particle/substance flow, but once formed they can’t continue the direction they must go by the exact means that formed them; thus life emerges as a means of further evolving the entire universal framework. In my opinion, we’re still part of that direction, but our motions just can’t be attributed to warped space-time, action/reaction, etc.

We seem to have the ability to affect our destiny, but I feel this is just a result of the needed increase in intelligence required to do our job. Animals perhaps don’t know sin, regret, etc, because those lovely emotions only evolve with increased intelligence. All they need to know is perhaps pleasure, pain, and fear; whereby they’ll find a safe place to live, good food to eat, stay out of trouble, and run like hell from the things that have bigger teeth than they do.

Our job requires us to do the one thing that no other animal can do; dig in the ground. Our whole lives hinge on the things we dig up: crops, natural resources, gold, diamonds, etc. In my views, we are here because a monkey can’t do our jobs. This position requires enough intelligence to manipulate our environment whereby we can build the machines, that build the machines, etc, that do the task before us. Once this level of intelligence is reached, a whole new set of obstacles emerges; like how do you have something smart enough to build such things, which requires so much energy, and get it to expand that energy, which it also needs to conserve. We need motivation whereby we don’t become lazy.

I like to sum this up by the building of one of the oldest standing man-made structures on the planet; the pyramids. These were some of the first civilized people on the planet, and they spent a lot of energy stacking all of those stones on top of each other, and I’m sure those doing the stacking would have rather been doing something else. But what were they really doing? Perhaps, they built them to get their pharaoh to heaven (religion), or to pay their bills (if they weren’t slaves), but they were actually just digging things up and placing them in the most efficient geometric structure to stand the test of time; thus providing many generations to come a constant reminder of our true purpose here. We may live with religious concerns, social problems, love, hate, etc, but all and all those are just the things that blind us to our ability and need to change the landscape and get the things from within the Earth that no other creature can reach. Just like the giraffes grew longer necks to eat from the tops of trees, which held their best source for food; our increased intelligence is merely an evolved extension of our arms, whereby we build things to reach the otherwise unreachable.

This is why I stated the questions I did, because my logic tells me that things aren’t necessarily just evolving long necks, arms, etc, but there is a function to why they are doing this. It may be a sloppy process with a seemingly little success rate, but I attribute that more to the limited baby steps taken by evolution.

To me, the world is a beautiful place; even the smallest of us creatures contribute to the motions of the largest galactic bodies. We appear to have free will, but are we actually all that free. We’re still limited by our abilities; which, in my opinion, are limited by our needed function.

Let me know if this makes any sense.

Tim

P.S. I'm not sure what you meant about the thread evolving fast. Do you mean our discussion, views, posts, or combination of all? just curious.

[analog]

If "energy is a measure of the change of the distribution of absolute motion," how does the redistribution of energy affect absolute motion?

Hi Leskey,

I'll try not to mess this up, but I probably will anyway.

Percieved "energy" is related to the motion of the fundamentals, and within my closed framework, this quantity of motion is finite and absolute; meaning the exact same amount is going on from definable interval to interval (each fundamental moves the same distance per unit of time), no matter what configuration the fundamentals are in. Therefore, the density of fundamental matter, which gives rise to more massive objects, also represents the density of motion within a difined volume of space (frequency), and being as "energy" is related to motion, a massive formation contains a vast ability to do work (energy;move things), because it contains a vast amount of redistributable motion. If all of the motion that is maintained within that volume is suddenly released (atom bomb), it has the ability to affect a large area of the system around it in a short amount of time, as everything has to reposition; due to all proximities and densities being relative to each other.

Rather than seeing objects in a room; try to picture an area with varying concentrated volumes of matter and motion, even the air; all interacting with relative proximities and densities. Naturally, the greater the concentration/density, the more solid and massive the volume/object appears. If you push a solid object, it's solidity is a measure of it's ability to linearly transfer the imposed direction from vibrating fundamental to vibrating fundamental.

In my opinion, our redistribution of motion/energy by means of electrical generation, chemical reactions, etc, is merely our way of rearranging the motion/matter density within defined spatial volumes of our system. We never affect (create/destroy) the total volume of motion within the system (due to conservation laws), we just affect its distribution.

I'm not real happy with this explaination. Let me think on it and I'll try to come up with a better way to explain it, because this is probably confusing.


regards,

Tim

[Graybeard]

Hmmm ... Thats a pretty deep post (number 71).... I need time to think about it. Initially I see nothing wrong with it.

I see each species as evolving to fill a niche which enables that species to access a resource that no other can ... hence diversification. Give me time to think on this one. But I don't see a 'guiding hand' in the design

The fast evolving thread is meant as a compliment .... On this forum ... and I know others will NOT agree, and even find this a bit offensive ... but its not meant that way. Some threads have hundreds of posts, and mostly they ramble, they do not evolve. What I mean is if you check in at post 237 you will find that the thread had the same thing (or close) in post 37 and in post 537.

I really consider these threads gossip columns, or coffee room chats, maintaining social interaction, but not really going anywhere. Most people enjoy this, I do also, but not a lot of information is transmitted. The Sins-of-the-holy-man is one such. There are many others.

However, this one came from nowhere in a blur of speed, and despite its momentum it is evolving ... at the end of it we may all find that our views have changed slightly, ... or greatly, ... and forever. Most good threads are over by 40 -50 posts, but once again, this is only my opinion


Now ... I don't know if it was you .. but someone on this forum mentioned 'emergence' ... I have been slack lately, and have not been keeping up, and have not heard of this before ... But I noticed that Dave in a post pricked up his ears and showed an interest. To me this is a clue that there may be something in it that I need to check out. ... Something tells me it may play a part on this particular thread.

Also ... you bought up three points in an early post (this thread) which I am still thinking about.

Also ... sorry about all the also's ... LOL ... Heres a link that (I think) has some relevance to those three points ... but I'm still thinking on this one.
The story is long, and if your like me, I find it easier to print it out and lay on the lounge chair and read it. Despite its length, I found it fascinating and have read it more than once .... the guy is, IMO, really got it together ..In some ways it changed my opinions, but in a subtle way. CLICK

Its seven chapters and takes some time and some concentration .. but its worth it. Don't feel obligated ... you will know after a few pages if you like it or not. I think it is relevant to this thread.

Heres the first paragraph

'Without time, without space. Without matter or energy. This is the beginning of the universe, and there is nothing – not even a point, not even a void. Out of this nothingness there arises a stir – an eddy, a flicker, a something inconceivably small. And with that something, as part of it, time, space, and other wonders come spontaneously into being. The lid of Pandora's cosmic box has begun to lift and from beneath it issue all the marvels of creation. Yet by whose hand has that lid been set ajar? And if the answer is "No one's," then how is the magic of genesis performed?'

Heres the last paragraph

'And yet in all this, one factor, one supremely decisive factor, has been left from the reckoning. The universe is not mindless and unaware. It has intelligence, consciousness. And through that it may have the power to control its own destiny.'

The last para is the worry .... LOL

cool bananas ... greg

[Profpat]

Heres the last paragraph

'And yet in all this, one factor, one supremely decisive factor, has been left from the reckoning. The universe is not mindless and unaware. It has intelligence, consciousness. And through that it may have the power to control its own destiny.'

The last para is the worry .... LOL

cool bananas ... greg [/quote]

Greg;

Don't WORRY be HAPPY. IT DOES HAVE THE POWER TO CONTROL ALL DESTINIES. I CALL IT GOD.

"I like to sum this up by the building of one of the oldest standing man-made structures on the planet; the pyramids. These were some of the first civilized people on the planet, and they spent a lot of energy stacking all of those stones on top of each other, and I’m sure those doing the stacking would have rather been doing something else. But what were they really doing? Perhaps, they built them to get their pharaoh to heaven (religion), or to pay their bills (if they weren’t slaves), but they were actually just digging things up and placing them in the most efficient geometric structure to stand the test of time; thus providing many generations to come a constant reminder of our true purpose here. We may live with religious concerns, social problems, love, hate, etc, but all and all those are just the things that blind us to our ability and need to change the landscape and get the things from within the Earth that no other creature can reach. Just like the giraffes grew longer necks to eat from the tops of trees, which held their best source for food; our increased intelligence is merely an evolved extension of our arms, whereby we build things to reach the otherwise unreachable" ( Analog )

The first public works project. You have to keep the people busy or they become bored ( Even the gods struggle in vain against boredom ) And then they cause problems. John Maynard Keynes told FDR to have a group of people dig holes, and another group to follow them to fill in those holes.

BEST,

Pat

[analog]

Greg,

I'm glad to see we've all got each other thinking. Your compliment is a compliment to us all. I'm enjoying our exchanges. Who knows what knowledge we may stumble upon?

Emergence is definately relevant to this conversation. It refers to the ability for simple interactions to evolve to form more complex structures/interactions. It most often refers to the emergence of life from a universal framework that apparently doesn't need it. It's a study of the mechanics of a universal framework needed to build animated formations/objects (life) from apparently inanimate fundamentals. You could view it as the entire evolution of a universal framework from the formation of the galaxies, stars, and planets all the way to you and I (mankind).

The thread you're probably refering to is Dave's thread- What is Emergence?. I see you've visited it, and that was Dave and I exchanging a couple of ideas. It's definately worth another look, if your curious of my views, because it relates to certain things I've said here.

regards,

Tim

[Graybeard]

Greg;
Don't WORRY be HAPPY. IT DOES HAVE THE POWER TO CONTROL ALL DESTINIES. I CALL IT GOD.
best
Pat

LOL ... I don't know if I would call it God. After all what if it turns out to be a natural scientific explanation like emergence ?

Will that mean then that there is no God ??

cool bananas ... greg

[Profpat]

Well I hate doing this to all my atheist friends, but what if there is a God. You did say you invite all thoughts here Tim. If there is, than what is our purpose, and it turns out, if you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, we are doing God's purpose.

Genesis Chapter 1 vs 28

28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

This mission is built into us ( evolution ) and is why we are doing just that.

Best,

Pat

[Graybeard]

Tim .... I'm a bit unsure about emergence .... I have done a lot of tests with ants on my balcony .... Do I here you laughing ?

I first read about the 'Warrior Ant' (Iridomyrmex humilus) in an old, (1939) article by a guy called Caryl P. Haskins ...

I then discovered that I had this ant on my balcony. I did many tests on the little bugger, setting up killing fields and free zones in an attempt to discover how he communicated.

This is what I managed to discover about him: (If I hear anyone laughing theres going to be trouble )

1 .. Individual ants have no awareness ... They communicate by touch and sound (they make a noise that cannot be heard by our ears ... they make the noise continuously ... absence of this sound alerts those nearby to danger). If you fail to reply with the 'masonic symbol' of identity, the ritual sound followed by touching feelers .. then you are food. Even by removing a single antenna from an ant, others will then consider him as food ... not an ant

Ergo: they are not aware ... A computer program could simulate all their standard responses to standard inputs. Ants can track where other ants have walked

2.. The colony has a 'group' intelligence that no individual ant is aware of. This intelligence, or part there of can be carried by any ant. Eg: In an experiment, repeated a few times, an ant (A) has found food ... he bumps into another ant (B), I kill A, B bumps into another ant (C), I kill B, and so on .... the last ant, who never saw the food and received his information 10th hand (the other 9 are dead) knows where the new food store is.

3... The genuis of their adaptation lies in the fact of many small, colonies. These colonies may be thought of as connected, even related. I don't think this is so, the ant of any colony does not object to any other ant removing food from his colony ... he is not Agressive .. in this way all colonys share ... one ant's colony is another ant's foraging site. But the colonies are not aware of each other.

The next thing I discovered was this article: University of Illinois This was labelled a new study .... Don't Scientists of similar fields have methods of collating their articles ... perhaps Dave could answer this ... How could it be new if it was written up in 1939 ??

This is how the article finished ...
"Only by following an invasion over time can researchers begin to understand the dynamics that allow alien species to win out over the natives, he said."

How much time did he need ... 1939 to 2007

I wrote to the guy politely, and suggested that his 'discovery' had already been written up in 1939. ... He replied quite politely:

'Greg, Thanks for the email. I have read some work by Haskins on invasive ants but have not seen "the Warrior ants". I will have to get a copy and check it out.

Andy '

He probably thought I was a nutter. I never heard any more. However, I have satisfied myself that 'information' is passed from ant to ant, concerning the welfare of the colony (which is not a physical entity) about which any and every ant knows nothing about.

Regarding the bird flocks, I am satisfied that no individual bird is aware of the movement of the flock, it just follows its nearest neighbour.

So Tim .... regarding Emergence ... I am open to suggestions ... but so far I am convinced it is just individual behaviour that in the group mode appears as 'intelligence'

We, Humans, are also a group of individual cells, none of which is aware of any other ... Where does that place our intelligence .... What will Leskey have to say to this ... LOLOL

cool bananas ... greg

[analog]

Well I hate doing this to all my atheist friends, but what if there is a God. You did say you invite all thoughts here Tim. If there is, than what is our purpose, and it turns out, if you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, we are doing God's purpose.

Genesis Chapter 1 vs 28

28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

This mission is built into us ( evolution ) and is why we are doing just that.

Best,

Pat

I encourage your participation from that viewpoint Pat.

I'm actually pretty fluent in biblical discussion. I read the entire bible when I was younger and studied similar to a biblical scholar. I have many views and opinions, not taught in churches, about it also. It was an interesting book. I can even explain it, whereby all of the race debate of coming from one family (Adam and Eve) is perhaps better understood.

How do you view the role of mankind in a system with a god?

Are we here just to keep him company?

Does his existence require our existence?

Are we all a dream of his?

How do you see it? We can certainly discuss it.

[sillysally]

Hi Greg, I just got a glimpse of evolution and man (something I find very difficult to believe, just like god. ).

Anyway, how are different types of people explained, like Asian, Black, White, Red, Brown, Tan? I know it has to do with melon in our skin but I don't think it means that we adapted to climates and changed (which I have heard as an explanation before) because all the white people living in Africa would have adapted y now and haven't. Even our bone structures in our faces are different. I think humans were modified along the line, perhaps some intelligent race changed us to be different with gene modification. We have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, sure we find evidence of remote primitive people, but we have people still living like that so those cave drawing findings aren't that primitive in my mind. I think finding that generation of people that made this change happen to mankind is the true primitives, even though they will also be the most highly evolved.