False & True Philosophical Utopias...

[MJA]

Lookin for truth, study nature. Michelangelo

A forest or a stream One might ask?
Or is it best to examine Oneself?
Answer: Both will take you there, for All is truly One and or the same.
Once One finds the truth One finds All.

=
MJA

[Lloyd Gillespie]

When Art = Truth...

IMO, no human alive or dead is as wise as Charles Sanders Peirce was, and still is...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The Inverse Conflexivity of Mind, Common Sense & Lucid Visions of Nature, Humanity & Materialism___Ontology of…

The above title is obviously copied from my first graphic… The ontology of humanism and materialism is a subject argued about since the dawn of organizing, and organized society. Ontology is the "metaphysical science or study of being," as per the online etymology dictionary; http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ontology&searchmode=none I am here extending it to the total actions of being, to include nature, and being’s materialism, yet it must be discussed metaphysically, until I may be able to later show a scientific method to better explain this subject, which I full well realize is very dear to many hearts. I simply think we can contribute much more to constructive dialogue and pragmatic action, if we can bring the metaphysical understanding more toward the real scientific understanding. This will in no way destroy the metaphysical ground of true heartfelt being, as there are many, many questions science can never answer; but there are also far too many dilemmas of social organizations left floundering in totally un-necessary arguments, by not scientizing that which should be scientized; and what should not be scientized, and can not be scientized, should be left to the metaphysical realm.


How do I know what should be scientized? It’s not a question of me knowing what should and should not be scientized; It’s a simple matter of that which can be scientized, will be scientized, and there’s not a soul on earth who can stop it; or anyone who should stop it. (If these areas turn dangerous, I leave it to the courts and laws to deal with.)

No-one can stop the inevitable, just as no one can stop evolution from being true, or DNA/RNA from being true and beneficial to humanity. The arguments we all witness in the public forums over these issues, and those over humanism and materialism, are completely un-necessary if one simply realizes, each side of these issues is simply ‘reacting’ instead of acting with one’s own common sense and intelligence. To make this simpler to explain, let me use the political spectrum of left and right issues. The humanist left reacts for their own desires, yet in truthfully looking at these actions, is actually reacting against what they perceive as their liberties being reduced, so react they do. The right is just as guilty as the left at ‘reacting’ against the left, in fear of their liberties being reduced, so react they do. Neither side of any of these humanist/materialist or leftist/rightist issues is acting in their own best interest__No-one on either side of any of the contemporary issues offers a truly workable solution to either side’s desires__Not the other’s or their own.

The only solution is to see these differences with a new vision and perception of inverse conflexivity, which requires lucid vision and perception of self-awareness, by being other-aware__Also. The easiest way to accomplish this is to completely invert the picture/image/movie within one’s mind, to thoroughly see it in its opposite light. You’d be surprised what this can accomplish. Let me just give you an example. I once asked at a conference when greed was mentioned; I asked, “What is greed?” Of course most thought it a ridiculous question, but I pressed the issue thus; “Truly and deeply think about this__What is greed? What really causes greed?” Finally, after considerable questions and debate, they started taking me seriously, and began to contemplate it, as they’d taken it for-granted, all their lives. They thought they knew what it meant__but realized they truly did not know what caused greed, thus couldn’t truly know what it was. This came as quite a shock to the entire group, after the conversations finally got moving. So, what is greed, and what does cause greed?

This is where the inversity of conflexivity comes in. By turning mental images/mentalities up-side-down, and looking at them anew, one is able to see an entirely new thought process within their own imaging/thinking processes. Just try this; take the issue you think and care the most about, and reverse your views completely about the same issue. It’s actually the same as taking the other person’s view, you hold opposite views of, and making them your own. When one does this, it allows one to climb directly into another’s mind, without even having them present; then you can actually see what’s missing of their thought system, as reflected in your thought system, by direct and total comparison. And if one is honest enough to realize the missing pieces in another’s thinking, through this thought inversion, then one must realize the same may be missing in their own thinking, as deep conflexive inversions are usually symmetrical, even of opposing views, images, concepts and perceptions. If you don’t think so__Just try it__and be honest about it…

Not to leave you in the dark about what causes greed, and what it truly is; here’s my experience of it, as I was once a businessman, who’s very being was being taken over by greed; until it repulsed me enough to close my business, and return to a normal job, working for the man. Greed is induced by several combinations of factors; the major being childhood pride and vanity induced by self, parents and friends, but when one has more money and opportunities than others, and showing off comes natural, the main culprit is adrenaline feeding these weak childhood passions, into habits of worse habits feeding on each other. Once pride and vanity begin swelling, fed by adrenaline, the greed junkie is born, never to stop__unless repulsed as I early was(businessman at 21 yrs. of age), yet I still suffer the disease of showing off, as I am still an adrenaline junkie with a damaged ego__Once a junkie, always a junkie. Mine is no longer greed, it’s just being a show-off junkie, but I was once a severely damaged greed, vanity, show-off and pride junkie of pure adrenaline and out-of-control ego…

[Graybeard]

..... by not scientizing that which should be scientized; and what should not be scientized, and can not be scientized, should be left to the metaphysical realm.......

......It’s a simple matter of that which can be scientized, will be scientized, and there’s not a soul on earth who can stop it; or anyone who should stop it. No-one can stop the inevitable

Hi Lloyd .. don't wish to de-rail your flow .. perhaps I'm responding too early ...

But I'm hung up on what appears to be a contradiction in the two paragraphs above. If the Scientific understanding will inevitably apply to all things, and not a soul can stop it ... then how do we have a choice as the first paragraph implies ?

Greed is induced by several combinations of factors; the major being childhood pride and vanity induced by self, parents and friends

Philosophical Utopias apply to humanity. But outside humanity (all other life on this planet) greed is a necessary and vital attribute for survival of the 'fittest' genes. Humans still carry this gene and therefore it must be considered one of those 'several combinations' of factors.

In the economic realm the principle of 'greed' being the 'guiding hand' behind capitalism is readily apparent ... By 'guiding hand' I mean that a greedy corporation, or person in pursuit of his greed, and who is successful will, by default, bring first tier economic gains to all that are associated with him, and they will bring second tier economic gains to their associates ... and so on.... and so an economy drives on.

Capitalism may be an obscene word to many because there is no doubt ... it handsomely rewards the Greedy !!

But it is the only system that offers freedom of choice, to engage, or not engage, to invest, to not invest, to spend, to not spend .. ...... And more importantly ... it is the only system that has truly stood the test off time ... and survived so far. I don't say that it has distributed benefit evenly .. but it has distributed benefit further and more equally than any other system and still allowed freedom of individual choice .. something other systems don't do.

BUT ... a big BUT ..... it is far from perfect .... just closer to perfect than all other systems ... as time has shown. It has survived as the fittest ... (but perhaps China may have a new version that will change all that ... lol)

cool bananas ... greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Lloyd .. don't wish to de-rail your flow .. perhaps I'm responding too early ...

But I'm hung up on what appears to be a contradiction in the two paragraphs above. If the Scientific understanding will inevitably apply to all things, and not a soul can stop it ... then how do we have a choice as the first paragraph implies ?

Hi Greg. I'm not saying scientific understanding will inevitably apply to all things, as any good scientist knows, this is impossible(example_Is there an odd or an even number of stars in the universe? No scientist can answer... There's 1000's questions like this...). I'm only stating evolution marches toward science. It'll never purely reach it. I believe I stated as such by premising that at the outset of this thread. Remember I qualified my posts by stating I'd be using an eclectic genericity of a universal standpoint, and not specific directives, unless I state them as such. I'm using genericity, as I full well realize the ambiguous nature of language_we all interpret differently. You've always the choice to ignore me or anyone...?

Philosophical Utopias apply to humanity. But outside humanity (all other life on this planet) greed is a necessary and vital attribute for survival of the 'fittest' genes. Humans still carry this gene and therefore it must be considered one of those 'several combinations' of factors.

I never stated it wasn't necessary, or the oil of commerce. I simply stated my experience of it, and for others to see through it could greatly improve mentalities.

In the economic realm the principle of 'greed' being the 'guiding hand' behind capitalism is readily apparent ... By 'guiding hand' I mean that a greedy corporation, or person in pursuit of his greed, and who is successful will, by default, bring first tier economic gains to all that are associated with him, and they will bring second tier economic gains to their associates ... and so on.... and so an economy drives on.

That particular greed mentality collapsed last Sept. `08, I think...? That's why we must investigate the true philosophical and economic properties/attributes of greed. We require new laws to curtail greed into fairer equities for all, not the greedy few. The false utopia of capitalism has pushed herself over the edge, just as the Marxist ideologies did. They're kinda triplets, socialism, communism and capitalism__Just as Kolakowski mentioned, false utopias of all kinds march toward their own totalitarian destructions, even China. The totalitarianism of money has met her match, by the totalitarianism of money_the external/offshore costs are more than the onshore ability to finance. This must be reformed to sensible logical law systems__Internationally/globally, to return the monies back to more balanced local control__If not, we're all going to hell in a handbasket...

Capitalism may be an obscene word to many because there is no doubt ... it handsomely rewards the Greedy !!

Capitalism is not an obscene word to me Greg, I'm a capitalist par 'excellance', but I'm no fan of the greedy trampling the needy. I'm a capitalist centrist conservative progressive, of fair-value-validity markets, not the ridiculous far right-winged greedomites' excessively destructive philosophy. I'll tax the greedy, thank-you...

But it is the only system that offers freedom of choice, to engage, or not engage, to invest, to not invest, to spend, to not spend .. ...... And more importantly ... it is the only system that has truly stood the test off time ... and survived so far. I don't say that it has distributed benefit evenly .. but it has distributed benefit further and more equally than any other system and still allowed freedom of individual choice .. something other systems don't do.

Now, where would you get the idea I'm against capitalism? I've written over twenty years as a 100% pro capitalist. I work with the Post Keynesian economist Paul Davidson, as I've often mentioned. After personally contacting me, Palgrave Macmillan just used my book review on their main website, and on Amazon's editorial post, supporting Paul's new book, "The Keynes Solution, The Path to Global Economic Prosperity." It's on my site here: http://theawakeningoftheamericamind.blogspot.com/ The review is also posted on Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ANI5675XWU7R8/ref=cm_cr_pr_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecent Review So, you see__I'm a Keynesian capitalist, just as you once called me...

BUT ... a big BUT ..... it is far from perfect .... just closer to perfect than all other systems ... as time has shown. It has survived as the fittest ... (but perhaps China may have a new version that will change all that ... lol)

cool bananas ... greg

You know Greg, I also hope as you do about China, but my facts and figures don't bear that out. They're purposely by-passing much of capitalism to directly route cheap and even stolen resources into China for profitable export...

Wov ya, later...

[PoPpAScience]

In response to the last two posts.

Democratic Capitalism is a great system and is better then the lesser systems of Socialism and Communism. But!!! It is far from being what we should be living in at this time in history. We need new founding people to stand up and demand that we move forward to a new level of social engineering. We have every right to create our own system of freedom, just as the founding fathers did over 200 hundred years ago.

This is my decree: People Of Logical Imaginative Compassionate Endeavors, should come together and put forth the next level of Social engineering. We have every right as People of the Modern era to create and govern as a free and just society.

No where is it written that Democratic Capitalism is the society to end all societies. Also, it is not written, that if we do not like Democratic Capitalism that we should move to a lesser form of Governing called Socialism, just as the other free nations have done and the USA is heading for right now.

Last winter I created a web site called peopleforfreedom.org where I was going to ask, People Of Logical Imaginative Compassionate Endeavors, to come, create and promote a new social system. But, unfortunately I have become side tracked with work and hindered by the inability to write properly. Not to mention my obsession with my Theory of Everything. Oh well, maybe in the future if I can find others that think as I do.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Allen, and yes I agree with you, completely. I feel we, as citizens of the world, should stand up and demand our governments create just such institutions as you speak of, to advance the real academic endeavors toward new and true social science knowledge systems. Of course, as you mention, "We need new founding people to stand up and demand that we move forward to a new level of social engineering."__First...

I fully concur... BTW, I highly recommend Paul Davidson's new book, mentioned in post above. Davidson, as well as I, have been advocating major economic change for decades. He's done an excellent job in his new book... You can read my review, 'One Lucid Diamond', here: Review

Democratic Capitalism is a great system and is better then the lesser systems of Socialism and Communism. But!!! It is far from being what we should be living in at this time in history. We need new founding people to stand up and demand that we move forward to a new level of social engineering. We have every right to create our own system of freedom, just as the founding fathers did over 200 hundred years ago.

This is my decree: People Of Logical Imaginative Compassionate Endeavors, should come together and put forth the next level of Social engineering. We have every right as People of the Modern era to create and govern as a free and just society.

No where is it written that Democratic Capitalism is the society to end all societies. Also, it is not written, that if we do not like Democratic Capitalism that we should move to a lesser form of Governing called Socialism, just as the other free nations have done and the USA is heading for right now.

Last winter I created a web site called peopleforfreedom.org where I was going to ask, People Of Logical Imaginative Compassionate Endeavors, to come, create and promote a new social system.

[PoPpAScience]

Hi Allen, and yes I agree with you, completely. I feel we, as citizens of the world, should stand up and demand our governments create just such institutions as you speak of, to advance the real academic endeavors toward new and true social science knowledge systems. Of course, as you mention, "We need new founding people to stand up and demand that we move forward to a new level of social engineering."__First...

I fully concur... BTW, I highly recommend Paul Davidson's new book, mentioned in post above. Davidson, as well as I, have been advocating major economic change for decades. He's done an excellent job in his new book... You can read my review, 'One Lucid Diamond', here: Review

Hi David; Thanks for the response and link. I will read the link tomorrow and look into the other links in this thread.

I would like to add to my previous post by saying, that I think the only way to implement a new social order called "Freedom". Is by creating a governing party that must be elected based on stated goals well documented in a web site that is fully interactive with all citizens. We can not convince today's politicians to advance a good cause, because they are only professional con people. We must create an advanced political system that incorporates all citizens in the process. I have many idea's that I have been sitting on for 30 years, and even went to college in the early eighties with the plan of being Prime Minister of Canada. But the things I did in my teenage years put an end to those dreams. I was going to go to Russia and see if Gorbachev wanted to implement my idea's when the soviet union fell, but the wife was scared that we would be killed. I have been hoping for a long time that someone would rise in prominence in the USA that would be willing to promote my Idea's, that would be perfected by other founding people's idea's. But, no luck yet.

Hopefully a group of "People Of Logical Imaginative Compassionate Endeavors" like I, can get together online someday and start the movement needed to move humanity back on the road to true freedom. This movement is needed now more then ever, to counter the movement that is taking the last none socialist nation on earth towards communism. We are on the brink of losing the fight for freedom.

[SteveA]

...The arguments we all witness in the public forums over these issues, and those over humanism and materialism, are completely un-necessary if one simply realizes, each side of these issues is simply ‘reacting’ instead of acting with one’s own common sense and intelligence. To make this simpler to explain, let me use the political spectrum of left and right issues. The humanist left reacts for their own desires, yet in truthfully looking at these actions, is actually reacting against what they perceive as their liberties being reduced, so react they do. The right is just as guilty as the left at ‘reacting’ against the left, in fear of their liberties being reduced, so react they do. Neither side of any of these humanist/materialist or leftist/rightist issues is acting in their own best interest__No-one on either side of any of the contemporary issues offers a truly workable solution to either side’s desires__Not the other’s or their own.

The only solution is to see these differences with a new vision and perception of inverse conflexivity, which requires lucid vision and perception of self-awareness, by being other-aware__Also. The easiest way to accomplish this is to completely invert the picture/image/movie within one’s mind, to thoroughly see it in its opposite light. You’d be surprised what this can accomplish. Let me just give you an example. I once asked at a conference when greed was mentioned; I asked, “What is greed?” Of course most thought it a ridiculous question, but I pressed the issue thus; “Truly and deeply think about this__What is greed? What really causes greed?” Finally, after considerable questions and debate, they started taking me seriously, and began to contemplate it, as they’d taken it for-granted, all their lives. They thought they knew what it meant__but realized they truly did not know what caused greed, thus couldn’t truly know what it was. This came as quite a shock to the entire group, after the conversations finally got moving. So, what is greed, and what does cause greed?

This is where the inversity of conflexivity comes in. By turning mental images/mentalities up-side-down, and looking at them anew, one is able to see an entirely new thought process within their own imaging/thinking processes. Just try this; take the issue you think and care the most about, and reverse your views completely about the same issue. It’s actually the same as taking the other person’s view, you hold opposite views of, and making them your own. When one does this, it allows one to climb directly into another’s mind, without even having them present; then you can actually see what’s missing of their thought system, as reflected in your thought system, by direct and total comparison. And if one is honest enough to realize the missing pieces in another’s thinking, through this thought inversion, then one must realize the same may be missing in their own thinking, as deep conflexive inversions are usually symmetrical, even of opposing views, images, concepts and perceptions. If you don’t think so__Just try it__and be honest about it…

Great comments here. I spent a few years on a website forum http://www.freestateproject.org/ regarding some people trying to get 20,000 people to move to a single state and try to make it much freer. I notice that I and many others initially had a lot of stereotypes regarding what such a state would be like and there were initially quite a bit of infighting, but still people wanted to see it happen and had to toss of some of the stereotypes to "make more room" for people to fit in.

It became obvious after a time that there were not a lot of specifics on a statewide level that people could agree, but that was basically the key - 90% of the people could agree that what they really wanted was just to have their own little niche with like minded people in a community that was not externally dominated by people who lived hundreds or thousands of miles away and really should have no reason to dictate over private issues between people (there were some unavoidable areas where it's not quite that simple, such as water or air pollution in which case your "trash" ends up in someone elses backyard, but these were minor issues in comparison to the rest).

I tend to prefer capitalist ideas, but the truth is that most companies are much like a commune with people picking in and receiving a share of the profits and there's nothing specifically stopping a commune from working well, in my opinion, though I think participation needs to be voluntary and people possibly tossed out if they're abusing it. A lot of the complaints that more "left-leaners" have about economic problems and abuse by powerful corporations are actually legitimate from a "right-leaning" perspective when you consider that the complaints are generally about special legal priviledges that corporations "enjoy" above the rights that the people comprising it should possess and that many of the complaints about economic slavery are the same ones that conservatives had about the fiat currency system and it's ability to allow large economic manipulation.The problems are seen in different ways but the root causes are generally quite similar - those problems just evolve on larger scales and one abuse here causes a reaction there that leads to overcompensation elsewhere and being unjustly handicapped in some other manner and it all ends up as the same thing - a few people have gotten a lot more power than anything a free market would have handed them and it was caused by the equivalent of legally protected or encouraged theft.

(I snipped off the remainder of my post because I don't want to distract from the character of your post - there are tons of details that could be gone over, but that's not particularly important - the most important point is that oftentimes manipulation occurs by playing people against each other and then getting them to believe that if they sacrifice themselves for the "cause", they'll be overrun by the "enemy". Of course the "enemy" hears the same things and the phrases used are different enough to make it seem as though there is an actual dispute, but in the end both sides make these sacrifices for a problem that was manufactured by propoganda ... but the sacrifices are real and they continue - consider this semi-famous phrase by a President of the U.S. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" - sounds great and patriotic and we should be blowing horns and cheering to hear such wise words, but when you actually sit down for a second and think about it, it's entirely backwards - there's absolutely no reason a group of people should support something that just expects them to sacrifice without benefit. We should all expect a government, country or society to be beneficial and have value to offer to its constituents. Slavemasters and tyrrants are those that expect people to sacrifice for no benefit to themselves. July 4th is Independence Day in the U.S. celebrating the last time we kicked out a King George but it's been covered over in a flag that didn't even exist back then and made to appear as if it was a celebration of the new "kings". Slavery is a dead end occupation. I remembered going through the Declaration of Independence and finding that probably 75-80% of the complaints made about King George back then were true today, though we've probably got even more that are entirely new and even more oppressive than what was around then - we just happen to have improved technology to a point at which we can support even greater levels of inefficiency and control. Technologies can be liberating in many ways, but just like other tools they can be misused and become oppressive as well - guess which version of technology gets the most "public" funding)

Dang, I still rambled.

[SB_UK]

Charles Sanders Peirce...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Sanders_Peirce#Theory_of_categories
"How To Make Our Ideas Clear"

If I can't explain it to an individual who wants to know, then I don't understand it.
~paraphrase~

I think that there have been a number of very great minds; though that these very great minds have all been representing that single

truth

using their own (generally quite eloquently spoken) words.

Probably (all things considered) best not to single just one person out -
- all that often then happens, is that debates rage on whether he or she was the best, was the originator of that all important idea ... ...

Pointless debates.

Sad to read on wikipedia that Marconi and Tesla (two of the greatest names that there have ever been)
were such bitter rivals -
- trying to undermine one another in an attempt to be King.

Their problem came from the realisation that their discoveries weren't for their exclusive enjoyment and that the value of their discoveries
was to be found
wholly
in their group utility.

This basic problem scales and represents the problem which many (including myself) report with the current, public face of capitalism.

The right and left were meant to work as one
- to ensure efficient mechanisms for all of people's benefit -
- are mutually dependent -
should never have been
(as we have done)
- should never have been separated into two competing interests.

->- the reason ->-
why centrist parties rule the very vast majority of wealthy, educated Western countries; the magic solution to
'whether capitalism and socialism ?'
- the magic solution is arrived at by simply making them (socialism and capitalism) collaboratingpartners.

Collaboration and not Competition.
- a variation on make love*1* not war.

*1* the love which Jesus describes and not the messy rumpy humpy thing which Salman Rushdie appears to be rather good at .

Take the 'Theory of Categories' for instance -
- I've come across multiple instantiations (by great minds) entitled the Theory of Categories -

- in fact such good minds, that one knows that there's a gem to be had in there,
- a gem to be found within THE Theory of Categories which wraps the attempts made by the great minds from history who have tried
- a single Theory of Categories which
(I guess)
explains away the logical structure of mind.