[dleviwing]

Science seeks to explain cause for all effects. The final and ultimate question is: “What is the cause of the UNIVERSE”? Our current mainstream model is but another form of geneses; something from nothing or divinity creationism; that’s probably why the Vatican is willing to agree with it. A true scientist however, realizes that there is no way of knowing or will adopt the belief that reality has always existed.

If we chose all has always been, then we need to give cause for the evolution of our universe and all that we observe. What do we have to work with to design a universe? Has substance always existed? Has energy always existed? Has space always existed? Has the forces always existed? Have all these things been condensed into a finite object just waiting to be released from their singularity penal complex?

IF NOT, THEN WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THEM? Take your best shot! What existed before the universe evolved?

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Very good thread starter idea David. Now, maybe we can get to the real meat of the issue, of universal science. I'll contribute later. I'll be out of touch for a while___location connection problems.

Lloyd

[mkirkpatrick]

As I see it,all is endlessly all,however this "ALL" is a cycle,as with the long day=billions of
years,and the long night = the same,between these two lies a "momentary pause" an
eternal and endless cycle,however I would further suggest that this cycle is on an ascending arc,so that each universe manifested is undergoing its own evolutionary
experience.

The very word cycle has within it the seeds of its propagation as in thus;
Consciousness
Yields
Consciousness
Looping
Endlessly===CYCLE!



regards michael.

[MJA]

Perhaps the cause of the universe is much like the cause of a river. It all started with rain, or did it?

A rain drop joined other rain drops to form a puddle. Overflowing its confinement it caused a trickle of a stream. The stream united with other streams to form a creek. The creek flowed into other creeks, that swelled into a river. The river ran into other steams and rivers as it traveled down the hillside until it reached the ocean. The ocean where all the rivers became one. The heat of the sun caused evaporation of tiny water molocules to rise back in the air where they united of other particles of water to form clouds. The current or air/water steam carried the cloud of water back to the hill where it began to rain.

What caused the river?
Was it the river itself?

What caused the universe?
Was it the universe itself?

And what of the unity or oneness of it all?
Is it TOE?

MJA

[dleviwing]

OK Mikey (MJA);
Let’s look at your analogy. The physics of rain to rivers is actually the evaporation of sources of water like lakes, ponds, and oceans that result in clouds that drop the rain when they become saturated or are pushed over higher elevations wind and then gravity pulls the droplets down.

Taking that analogy we can say that throughout the vastness of an infinite void are pools or sources of a fundamental substance needed to produce a universe. With this analogy the universe is the cloud of substance and structured matter particles are the raindrops that make the rivers of galaxies.

Now with rain we have the Sun that provides the mechanism of evaporation; what do we have to convert the sources of fundamental stuff to clouds of universe and matter? What is the nature of this fundamental stuff that it can do such a thing?

Maybe it was the consciousness of the stuff that caused it as Michael suggests.

[MJA]

Perhaps David, cause and effect are one and the same!

MJA

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by dleviwing Now with rain we have the Sun that provides the mechanism of evaporation; what do we have to convert the sources of fundamental stuff to clouds of universe and matter? What is the nature of this fundamental stuff that it can do such a thing? Maybe it was the consciousness of the stuff that caused it as Michael suggests.

Maybe it was fixed motion created by the expansion of space. As opposed to measurable relative motion between condensed matter.

I think Michael has been reading too much Boethius.

greg.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Graybeard Maybe it was fixed motion created by the expansion of space. As opposed to measurable relative motion between condensed matter. I think Michael has been reading too much Boethius. greg.

You are quite wrong there mate,never met the chap!



regards michael.

[dleviwing]

Had to look that one up Greg.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02610b.htm

[bottomlander]

Originally Posted by MJA Perhaps the cause of the universe is much like the cause of a river. It all started with rain, or did it? What caused the river? Was it the river itself? What caused the universe? Was it the universe itself? And what of the unity or oneness of it all? Is it TOE? MJA

Dear MJA,

Your analogy implies a Steady State Cosmology, unless you think thatan one time heavy rain can cause a river.

Best Regards. Bottomlander