Why motors can't run on water.

[bluescreenofdebt]

I don't know exactly where to post this but I figured the general physics forum was the most appropriate. I just read an article on a car that runs on water. The internet is full of dumb ideas, but then I started looking at the comments and realized that people didn't realize this was a dumb idea, and those that did couldn't say why. This post is to explain why it can't happen. Any comments you have are appreciated, any questions you have I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

A scientist who sees someone describing a motor that works by converting water to hydrogen and then burning it to get energy will immediately laugh it off quoting the laws of thermodynamics. This is valid and I agree with it, the problem is that most people don't understand what that means and so they don't believe it as an argument (which is good, it’s the mark of a skeptical mind). Fortunately behind every 'laws of thermodynamics' argument there is a mechanism (although not always obvious) through which that happens. That’s what I'm going to describe here.

The motor violates the law of conservation of energy. When you burn hydrogen you get a certain amount of energy out usually in the form of light (flame), heat, and sound. You then have hydrogen bonded to the oxygen in the air which makes water (H2O anyone?). Now if you want to get that hydrogen back out from the water you need to invest the same amount of energy that it released when you burned it. That’s what conservation of energy is all about.

What this engine claims to be doing is investing that energy required to break the hydrogen bonds with the oxygen, then burning the hydrogen (and bonding it again to the oxygen), and not only are they saying this is 100% efficient – meaning you use all the light, heat, and sound released (which is impossible, some always leaks out and is unusable) – but they claim they get extra energy out of this reaction. Where did this energy come from?

That’s the problem with water powered engines (note that this is very different from steam powered engines where the energy comes from other places like a nuclear reactor or burning a fuel like coal).

Anyway like I said, any questions or comments welcome.

[dleviwing]

The way I understand it is that it is cheaper to use your household electric power to separate the hydrogen and oxygen to run your automobile than to pay $4.50 or more at the pump for a gallon of fossil fuel. It’s like paying less than a buck for the same amount of energy you get from that gallon of dead dinosaurs and you can do it all at home; the “run on water” thing is just media hype BS.

BTW: you can expect the price of a kilowatt to go up accordingly.

[quanta07]

Hello bluescreenofdebt,

Electrolyser technology has advanced and the use of water as a source of fuel is one of the ‘holly grail’s of physics, It is not a hoax…….

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/FutureTechnologies/Hydrogen.aspx?enc=t0eBkkksaeOlO9zOt8gzADZCvgwlYpsT NlAXDAkk1+s=

Although this is an advertisement for BMW hydrogen car, there are kits available to convert newer model cars into hybrid vehicles. What is not known by the buyer are the ‘extras’.
The alternator output must be increased, due to the current draw of the electrolyser unit, this reduces engine power output. Hydrogen burns at a much lower temperature and the reaction produces less than 30 percent power of a hydrocarbon burn. The water used must be filtered and mineral free, the catalyst is salt and the catalyst must be monitored/regulated for proper gas output, daily. Plastic check valves must be used to inhibit blow back ignition. Only engines with computer controlled feedback, with throttle body mixture(and diesels) are compatible for retrofit conversion. No kits are available for full hydrogen burn only. The gas output of the electrolyser unit is feed into the normal engine air intake and the cars computer will control the fuel mixture with the feedback signals from the oxygen sensors. Since the salt will tend to bond to gaseous oxygen, and this is not a good thing to run through your engine, the output gas from the Electrolyser cells should pass through a water bath, two water baths are better since they will collect the salt from the oxygen passing through with the hydrogen. Because of this effect, daily measurement of electrolyte and replacement of fresh water in the water bath is mandatory for maximum performance. Hydrogen will mix with the mass of the hoses and eventually will permeate and cause leakage, therefore all hoses from the Electrolyser to the engine must be replaced every year. A tachometer feed back switches Electrolyser power off/on making the engine idle on gasoline/diesel fuel. And finally a master kill switch on the dashboard of the vehicle.
All these ‘extras’ add up to a mandatory dedication to vehicle maintenance and results in an overall 35 percent reduction in engine power performance with a 60 to 100 percent increase in miles per gallon.
Total cost and installation for the unit above is $1500 dollars US.

To a car buff, this gives the perfect excuse to get under the hood, but to many other commuters these systems will fail due to operator neglect.

With such high fuel prices, conversion looks favorable in my future.

Happy thoughts…..Q7

[bluescreenofdebt]

I've heard of the hydrogen car and it does look interesting. I'm curious about the efficiency. I'm okay with a car that runs on hydrogen. You could probably even convert it at home like dleviwing was saying (although its probably expensive to buy an efficient converter). The article I read was about a car that you pour water into and lo and behold its fueled up.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=84561&;

[xxyy]

Begging your pardon Bluescreenofdebt but you are flat out wrong in your sweeping statements about everything. Have you discovered the TOE and is that how you must vindicate the laws of thermodynamics? I have discovered the TOE and I can tell you that those laws are DEAD WRONG.

Consider the matter of water, and how when you remove energy away from it, it provides you with energy. I am speaking about how freezing water expands and has the capacity to shatter pipes and break apart mountain sides. This force is literally unstoppable, and it only arises when you take away energy. That is because the natural ordering of the molecules into crystals does not need chaotic thermal energy but it works off of a different kind of energy which science has ignored for too long.

Consider the matter of the expansion of the universe, and how it is increasing everyday with no known source of energy. There are things in this world mr. which are completely and utterly uneblievable and you would do much to believe them. The notion of energy as a discrete and boring phenomenon is far from correct.

Consider that one may create a magnetic machine, which may take a small amount of mechanical energy and convert it into a large amount of electrical energy in the form of lightning discharges in the atmosphere. Have you done the experiment to say this is not so?

You would do much to look at the world with a shere fascination and appreciation for the greatest absolute value, and then it would take away your somewhat "pessimistic" way of thinking. Or perhaps you are a disinformation goon from the Dark Cabal trying to keep us away from our resolve to know the secrets and promote a better way of living? If so, it's not going to work.

To all who would know the truth, the laws of thermodynamics are DEAD WRONG and the theory of everything has demonstrated it so. Don't take my word for it, do your "homework." There are many examples of electrolizers and water processes which put out more energy then can be accounted for by standard notions.

Look into Kanarev and his electrolysis
look into Stan Meyer who was taken out
look into Peter Stevens and Joe X who invented the Joe Cell
look into the Patterson cell
look into Randell Mills and the Blacklight Process

Don't give in to mass hysteria. Look into the truth and you will see that energy is beyond your wildest imaginations and only a true understanding of energy will take us beyond old laws. Look into the truth.

Stop promoting disinformation. GET WITH IT!

http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Dir...v_Electrolysis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zihvon92knE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhseC-RidAU

[bluescreenofdebt]

xxyy - are you looking for a serious discussion about this or is nothing I say going to matter to you? And please don't call me Mr. Its so... formal.

[xxyy]

Sure I am looking for a serious discussion. Ask yourself what is the definition of one thing divided by nothing and you will se that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong. Ask yourself how freezing water provides an energetic force upon expansion and you will see that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong. Ask yourself why the universe expands faster and faster with every passing moment and you will see that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong. Ask yourself why my machine, christened the wheels of great fortune, convert a small amount of mechanical energy into a large amount of electrical energy in the form of lightning and you will see that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong. Ask yourself what caused the earthquake in china and the strange cloud formations and you will see that the laws of thermodyanmics are wrong.

My problem is that you make sweeping statements about everything when you clearly have not yet realized the theory of it. Anyone who has discovered the unified field theory has stated that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong, although some of them state it in a way that is watered down. Me, I just give you the paydirt.

much respect,
xxyy

[bluescreenofdebt]

Two questions, first of all out of curiosity have you ever heard of a property called 'free energy'? I don't mean getting energy for free, I mean the statistical mechanics quantity that combines entropy and energy in it. I mention it because it's used to describe changes of state, e.g. water to ice and the resulting expansion (although I have to admit I haven't looked in detail at any math relating to water specifically).

Also can I ask what you think the laws of thermodynamics say and what specifically you're so adamantly against with regards to them?

[xxyy]

Gladly,

The Laws of Thermodynamics state that reality is mundane and boring and that we will never get beyond our solar system. That is what the laws state and they are apprehensive laws inspired by pessimism, not forward thinking.

The laws of thermodynamics are based on arrogance and doubt and a belief that we can make sweeping statements about everything when we can't even define everything, such a simple concept as "one thing divided by nothing."

One thing divided by nothing is something that is not constrained or restricted, something that is not mundane or boring. It is something that is undivided in spirit. One thing divided by nothing is like magic and it can literally do and be everything. It can change from one moment to the next.

Energy is something that is awaiting a definition. it is waiting for us to give it a name. Right now it's name is "limitation." But as one thing divided by nothing, it is the limit of limitlessness. It is the ability to constantly change. It is the reason the universe is expanding. It is quite poignantly a consistent contradiction which is a blessing in disguise. The correct definition is that word which you call "verisimilitude"

Verisimilitude means that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

Free energy is a term in physics and so is zero-point energy but these terms have been hijacked for good purpose. The reality is that Free Energy and zero-point energy research has overshadowed the sordid physics terms which they arrive from. The sordid physics terms like zero-point energy are watered-down descriptions of things that confound and bebother the laws of thermodynamics.

Did you read the links that I sent you friend? The reason I hate the laws of thermodynamics is because they are wrong and they have us thinking in the direction of doom. Only through a true understanding of verisimilitude will we unlock the potential of the universe and it's so-called "energy." How do you think the other beings in the universe do it friend? Do you think they are burning gasoline or using windmills??? No, they are using the same energy that causes the universe to expand and that causes magnets to provide a constant force despite no source of fuel.

-xxyy

[G_burnett]

Gladly,

The Laws of Thermodynamics state that reality is mundane and boring and that we will never get beyond our solar system. That is what the laws state and they are apprehensive laws inspired by pessimism, not forward thinking.

The laws of thermodynamics are based on arrogance and doubt and a belief that we can make sweeping statements about everything when we can't even define everything, such a simple concept as "one thing divided by nothing."

One thing divided by nothing is something that is not constrained or restricted, something that is not mundane or boring. It is something that is undivided in spirit. One thing divided by nothing is like magic and it can literally do and be everything. It can change from one moment to the next.

Energy is something that is awaiting a definition. it is waiting for us to give it a name. Right now it's name is "limitation." But as one thing divided by nothing, it is the limit of limitlessness. It is the ability to constantly change. It is the reason the universe is expanding. It is quite poignantly a consistent contradiction which is a blessing in disguise. The correct definition is that word which you call "verisimilitude"

Verisimilitude means that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

Free energy is a term in physics and so is zero-point energy but these terms have been hijacked for good purpose. The reality is that Free Energy and zero-point energy research has overshadowed the sordid physics terms which they arrive from. The sordid physics terms like zero-point energy are watered-down descriptions of things that confound and bebother the laws of thermodynamics.

Did you read the links that I sent you friend? The reason I hate the laws of thermodynamics is because they are wrong and they have us thinking in the direction of doom. Only through a true understanding of verisimilitude will we unlock the potential of the universe and it's so-called "energy." How do you think the other beings in the universe do it friend? Do you think they are burning gasoline or using windmills??? No, they are using the same energy that causes the universe to expand and that causes magnets to provide a constant force despite no source of fuel.

-xxyy

your an interesting one, want to make my motor with me ... ? I'm tired of Earth personally .. 20 mil up for grabs in Scotland should get us going after prototype? Peace Graham