[subversion]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody

Describe absolute good and absolute evil without relating it to the human experience.

Absolute good is the greatest possible value that can be ascribed to anything. Therefore absolute good is the value of everything. Absolute evil is the worst possible value that can be ascribe to anything. Therefore absolute evil is the value of nothing. Does that answer your question? That is the physical definition and incarnation of morality according to the TOE.

Additionally, your argument seems to make quite obvious the fact that good and evil perhaps don't really exist. However, this non-existence of good and evil can always be viewed as a good thing, and thus everything can still have the greatest possible value even if good and evil do not technically exist.

cheers

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by subversion

Absolute good is the greatest possible value that can be ascribed to anything. Therefore absolute good is the value of everything. Absolute evil is the worst possible value that can be ascribe to anything. Therefore absolute evil is the value of nothing. Does that answer your question? That is the physical definition and incarnation of morality according to the TOE.

Additionally, your argument seems to make quite obvious the fact that good and evil perhaps don't really exist. However, this non-existence of good and evil can always be viewed as a good thing, and thus everything can still have the greatest possible value even if good and evil do not technically exist.

cheers

Maybe you are right,who knows?

kind regards michael.

[subversion]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick

Maybe you are right,who knows?

You should. We all should.

kind regards, subversion

[chazzysaw]

Originally Posted by harmonygirl

Is there evil? Does the notion of the Goddess contain the idea of Good? What is Good? I don't believe that moral judgements apply in nature. Prey is killed and eaten to survive. There is play but not malice. There are egos but not wars. Are Good and Bad false concepts we have come up with to control and order society? I used to believe in conscious evil. I am not sure I do anymore. Those people that leap to mind as evil, are they not a product of their time, their life lessons, their personalities adapting to these? Is evil natural? I would love to hear ideas...

God is the Goddess and the Goddess is God because God/Goddess is everything good and evil.(where ever the line may be). My mother has a saying " God is good all the time". My reply to her is "God is everything all the time". The subject of good and evil is a very opinionated topic.What may be good to me may not be good to you and vice-versa. I have had bad things happen to me that turnout to be a good thing and good things(I thought) turn out bad. As long as there are things we consider to be good, bad will exist. Pain seems to be the source of evil wether it is physical or emotional, if it hurt it's not good. I'm sure most of us have experience both at one time or another. There are many ways of obtaining pain. I personally prefer the physical pain, the emotional pain hurts to deep and last much longer. Death is one way to pain, it can be a pain so bad that you would wish death on yourself. The death of a child would make you do that. Is death evil? Every person born and every person alive at the time of my writing this statement will die one day. So the pain that death bring makes it evil right? Wrong, death is no punishment. There is something else and it has to do with conscious evil. The one thing I consider truelly to be evil.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody

Where was good and evil before mankind gave it names?
What did good and evil do before homo sapiens came down from the trees?
What was/is their purpose?
Is a supernova evil if it wipes out populated planets?
Is the black hole evil if it swallows matter?
Good and evil are like colors. They reflect how we experience the world and how we measure certain acts/ behavior against an established norm. What is absolute red? Without the eyes, we see no colors, there is no colors. Describe red to a blind man. Without a comparative judgement of actions there is no good and evil.
Describe absolute good and absolute evil without relating it to the human experience.
Sentient acts in relation to the impact of their societies are good and evil. Human sacrifices were good for the Aztec society but unthinkable for western cultures

Not so good for the poor sap being sacrificed though !

regards michael/

[jim barlow]

I think one fruitful avenue of inquiry is looking at origins, especially in the spiritual/psycho areas. There we see the mental animal in a simpler edition. So, back to the monkeys just coming out of the trees standing up in a kind of new territory. DANGER. Un-known danger stalks around. The buddies band together. They share similar fears and would like to picture it to make it more concrete and manageable. (Fundamental psychic urge.) Along come the first artist / shamans and are employed by the community. They shape and define a figure of fear where se can actually see it. DANGER now has a face. However it appears it must not be altered. Community property. To die for. To kill others if theirs is different. Harmony within the belief system = survival.

The other common creations regarding other, happier aspects may be less serious and experimental. More like art as we know it.

When I think how St Peter's basilica emerged from the monkeys' fear or danger I can't help admiring the passion for change in these animals.

[harmonygirl]

Chazzysaw, I agree that death is not evil. As you pointed out, it is the natural evolution of our lives here. I am curious about the conscious evil you mentioned, however, you didn't name it and I am wondering why. If you can, please enlighten me.
Mr. Nobody, yes Good and evil are culturally and societally prescribed. Is there anything further, can we attribute this to the Goddess? I don't believe so anymore, I think to some extent, we have created concepts to order and control our communities. Where do we get our moral code?

[subversion]

Originally Posted by chazzysaw

God is the Goddess and the Goddess is God because God/Goddess is everything good and evil.(where ever the line may be). My mother has a saying " God is good all the time". My reply to her is "God is everything all the time". The subject of good and evil is a very opinionated topic.What may be good to me may not be good to you and vice-versa. I have had bad things happen to me that turnout to be a good thing and good things(I thought) turn out bad. As long as there are things we consider to be good, bad will exist. Pain seems to be the source of evil wether it is physical or emotional, if it hurt it's not good. I'm sure most of us have experience both at one time or another. There are many ways of obtaining pain. I personally prefer the physical pain, the emotional pain hurts to deep and last much longer. Death is one way to pain, it can be a pain so bad that you would wish death on yourself. The death of a child would make you do that. Is death evil? Every person born and every person alive at the time of my writing this statement will die one day. So the pain that death bring makes it evil right? Wrong, death is no punishment. There is something else and it has to do with conscious evil. The one thing I consider truelly to be evil.

Does conscious evil really exist though? I have a theory that if you do something, you do it because you think it is a good thing to do, for you at least. So for example, let's say some guy rapes somebody (sorry, my example seems to refer to men, this doesn't mean that men are more "evil," but they could be, considering that sex emerged evolutionarily as a form of rape invented by males to capitolize on nature, and the hymen is a symbolic testament, an evolutionary throwback to this fact.) Now the rapist probably knows that certain people wouldn't like his activities, but that doesn't mean he himself thinks it's a bad thing. So is he conscious of evil? Obviously for him, raping somebody is a good thing. Just cause he knows some people consider it evil, doesn't mean he does. So who's definition can we accept, and is this man really conscious of evil, or just his own opinions? It seems that casting any non-uniform judgement is automatically hypocritical, because what you like is not what somebody else will like. By non-uniform judgement I mean labeling one thing as good and another thing as bad. All things are created equal in the make-up of everything, so in order to be completely just and truthful we can not label one thing as good and one thing as bad. In an absolute sense, judgement means you are making a guess about the truth, which means you are lying. SO mankind is folly to cast judgement of right and wrong, for there is no benchmark standard to decide what is good and what is bad. Therefore, in order to be fair, we must either consider that everything is a good thing or a bad thing, not a mixture of the two. That's the only fair thing to do, I'm telling you.

If we choose to decide that everything is good it does not destroy the concept or integrity of good, for nothing still remains to take on the identity of bad. Therefore you can always have nothing be a bad thing, and everything be a good thing, and the essential definition of good and bad are entirely upheld.

Getting back to what you're Grandma said, I find it quite amusing. She says that God is always good, and you say that God is always everything. So if I'm right that everything can be considered a good thing, then both you and your Grandma and me can all be considered right. Talk about a win win win situation huh? Now that's what I call a good thing

-subversion

[harmonygirl]

I don't know that you can say that rape is a good thing for the rapist...We know it's not a good thing for the other man he is raping. We know it's not a good thing for society. Is it a good thing for the rapist? He (or she, because this does happen) tends not to be acting on a sexual impulse, because rape is not about sex, it is about power. Is the rapist conscious of the fact that the other man he is raping is suffering pain due to the rape? probably. Does the rapist feel good about him or herself because of the rape? Doubtful. Does the rapist feel good about the rape, itself? Also doubtful. I don't get where this is good for the rapist...even from his perspective, most likely he feels badly about raping the other man.

[chazzysaw]

Originally Posted by harmonygirl

I am curious about the conscious evil you mentioned, however, you didn't name it and I am wondering why. If you can, please enlighten me.

Any thought that has the intent to harm another thought and carry out the intentions for selfish reason to me is evil. An evil thought always have selfish desires. To prejudice a mind and convince one self or another to harm or cause destruction in the name of good is a contamination of the mind. This contamination exist in every culture, race and religion. From the past to the present day God is used to help spread the evil. To restrict a mind from expanding for selfish reasons is evil. Evil is in control of our lives on this planet. Our thoughts are ignorant and too selfish to see the whole picture. Our egos won't let us except the fact that we are a very small part of the picture. We think the world was made for us not us for the world. When we begin to realize our place in this universe and understand this evil contamination then maybe we will be in control. Evil will always exist but we have to be in control not it controlling us. Then maybe the answer to the TOE will be realized.