[Guille]

Originally Posted by harmonygirl I am not sure I agree that all acts and attempts at knowing are about conquest. School was definitely about conquest, but knowing as it applies to life is less about conquest and more about understanding how things are.

I agree--and no, it's not the end of the world--with you. But simply I think that 'knowing as it applies to life' is wisdom, not knowledge. Wisdom isn't only philosophy. Wisdom is all that which we know and which isn't knowledge, isn't science. It's what you've learned from experience, from observation, from perception... For me, the union of knowledge and wisdom is understanding, and that is for me what we need for the TOE.

I would like to quote Nietzsche again in relation to this: "Wisdom puts limits even to knowledge; there are things which I definitely don't want to know." I think it's the 5th maxim in The Twilight of The Idols.

[WithoutMe]

Guille,
More so: -
"Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent -- that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior. "
-- Friedrich Nietzsche.

& Harmony,
abt life, - why does one want to understand anything for that matter? For that, one has to undertsand what is actually meant "understanding" in the first place! When & in what situation do we understand anything?

Does some1 wants to get back the control in one's life? Is undertsanding then all abt conquering the "hidden" forces that lie all around (or actually, "in") us!!!

Can one give up on Nature, & even if so, y in the first place would one want to do so? For the belief & hence in the transcendence thru such an attitude as in, "Let Go"???

Why this "let go"??? Coz behind all the plausible reasons one wants to enforce upon with, one still is very much in for one's survival, be it the survival as oneself or the survival as part-of-Nature!!!

Does one wants to become a part-of-Nature or does one wants to become Nature in itself?

What this wanting to become Nature?
For Nature is immortal (atleast it is conceived to be so) ??
Again, behind this Oneness & all that goes with it ("understanding", "knowledge", etc etc), one is still operating from the mechanism of Survival?

But above all these, one straightforwardly asks, what is the problem in being as is what is?
Wht this change? or Why this need & hence so much talk - abt Change?

Changing Oneself! Huh! Does "Oneself" exist as Oneself for Oneself to Become Not Oneself....huh!

Regards,
wM.

[WithoutMe]

To all Spiritualists,

What is Wisdom?
That which will tell us -- "What to do when" & "When to do what"?

Can that ever be?

Regards,
wM.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by WithoutMe Guille, More so: - "Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent -- that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior. " -- Friedrich Nietzsche.

Good quote too.

Originally Posted by WithoutMe Changing Oneself! Huh! Does "Oneself" exist as Oneself for Oneself to Become Not Oneself....huh!

In relation to this, I may quote a contemporary of Nietzsche, Tolstoy, but who had nothing to do with him in the world of ideas (he reportedly said that "Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal"), said "Everyone thinks in changing the world; no one things in changing oneself."

[WithoutMe]

Corresponding to Guille had said from a quote by Tolstoy (& yes, he did say that line abt Nietzsche), let me quote M.K. Gandhi here: -
"Be the change that u want to see in others"

[Guille]

Originally Posted by WithoutMe Corresponding to Guille had said from a quote by Tolstoy (& yes, he did say that line abt Nietzsche), let me quote M.K. Gandhi here: - "Be the change that u want to see in others"

Gandhi was greatly influenced by Tolstoy. They were both profound pacifists. Another profound pacifist was Russell, who is one of the best men in history to quote, some ex: "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong" in relationt to peace, "Goverments can easilly exist without laws, but laws can't exist without goverment" which too shows Tolstoy's influence, the writter was an anarco-moralist, "Many peoply would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so" in relation to how stupidity leads to going far in anything.

[harmonygirl]

Guille and WM, great quote battle (Tolstoy was a fav, although not as much as Doestoyevski, and of course, MG).
Guille, if we agree, I will have to check to see if Satan is iceskating to work!
WM, I actually think that one of the fundamental characteristics of humans is a drive to understand their environment and put it in context. This is true from orphans in Kenya to Nepalese monks to Spanish students. This is the reason for religion and politics and capitalism, etc. I think that our asking "why?" might just be encoded genetically. (hence the need for different forms of organization that don't seem to characterize animals or plants)
We understand different things at different points in our life, so I am not saying that once understood, the matter is resolved. There is growth, evolution, incorporating of new experiences, which result in different understandings. With your previous post, I have started to wonder if a fundamental difference between men and women is how they think (because no one I know thinks that understanding involves conquest!). Could there be a fundamental difference in the way we are hard-wired, that is not a part of social conditioning? hmmm.....I wonder.
My undestanding of the Let Go precept is that in order to obtain enlightenment, you must release yourself from desire, which brings about pain (pain of not getting as well as the pain of getting, sometimes!). I don't think that survival is incompatible with enlightenment, I mean you don't have to be sitting on a mountain top somewhere, existing on berries. You can put understanding into practice, whatever you do, however you live.
I think we are both, nature and part of nature (of course, I think everything's connected, but that's a whole other conversation)
When you say nature is immortal, do you mean it is infinite?
Don't you think that change is inevitable? If you are living, hopefully you are experiencing new things all the time, so you are synthesizing these new experiences into your awareness and hence, changing. Isn't this in our nature? I don't believe there is a problem in what is, it's just that life isn't stationary. Maybe we talk about change to consider who we want to be, what options are open to us and try to achieve balance?
Oneself is always oneself, but never the same.

[WithoutMe]

Harmony,
u just now justified yur name.... well, u did strike a balance between all thoese words by Guille & all those by WM... lol!

Thanks,
wM.

[Mohan.C]

Originally Posted by Guille Nietzsche said 'We know to devour'. He meant exactly what you say and what I agree with: science exists for knowledge and knowledge exists for prediction and prediction exists for control. Therefore, science exists for control. I want to read your philosophy about philosophy.

Before telling you I believe philosophyis like "addagode mele deepa itta hage" (pardon me, it's a kannada proverb. I don't know how to translate). However, it means- like when you keep a lamp on a partition between two rooms it sheds light on both the rooms(concepts). And not taking sides. It does not completely point which is right and which is wrong. Philosophy is reasoning from curiosity of man's thoughts. And it is like that lamp because it tries to cover all concepts and makes it hard to decide which is right because all concepts have some truth in them and hence philosophy can't take sides. Because it is th search for truth in all concepts. That's all I know as I said philosophy is in the middle of everything.

[Mohan.C]

Originally Posted by WithoutMe No wonder all acts & attempts at knowing is all abt conquering what one wants to know.... we, the humans of this day & age, are very much the hunters & the humpers which have lived on this earth some millions of yrs ago!!! Btw, Mohan am very eager to know how u see Spirituality as regards to Religion? Plz comment. Regards, wM. PS. Guille, you "want to read ...[abt his] philosophy about philosophy"... shades on Nietzsche on u???

Regarding to spirituality- as I said it is a way of life. And religion is a way to attain spirituality. Religion comes under certain rules and regulations followed by a certain leader and that leader expects his followers to move in his path. And "in his path" I mean it is an abstruction to everyman's independence. Because it is covered by expectation of another man. A certain leader attains a level in spiritual life in a certain path and hence he thinks his path is the right path(A part of man's past, which no man can ever sacrifice). A sacrifice of our past of our thoughts and our ego. Saying this I am showing my ego because "I" think this is the right path and you may think otherwise.