[Guille]

Originally Posted by dipayankar As far as I understand, things that do not have any requirement do not exist. We do not require 'God' for any reason whatsoever. Hence it is very safe to concur that 'He' does not exist.

I agree with this. We can have morals without god. We can have civilizations without god. We can have culture (science, philosophy, art...) without god. We can have society without god. We can have life and existence without god. Therefore, if everything can be without god to be, god is not a member of everything (for anything must be necessary for everything), therefore god doesn't exist.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody My understanding of God is to subscribe simple observation and exclude all mythical to come to this logical conclusion: God is reality, the energy that we all represent, being part of us, nothing more, nothing less. God does not have a separate existence, but is existence. God does not act, nor has consciousness, but obtains a persona through our thoughts, as we are living, thinking beings in need of reason for all there is to see. Our mortality and emergent intelligence spawned the concept of creation and the concept of a separate entity that controls an environment that was shaped by the evolution of matter. We Are God. Therefore, there never is and never was a before nor after God, as this would exclude reality. Existence without reality is nonsensical

Do not call THAT! a logical conclusion. It is, as you said, your understanding of god. If you think that god is nature, why don't you just call it nature? That's what I do. That's why there is the word nature, to refer to what nature is. God is there to refer to the being which is independent of nature, which is a supernatural (the adjective proves it) being. Our mortality and emergent intellegience also spawned the concept of god as nature. Those who believe in god as separate entity can't proof they are right, but those who believe god as inherent entity, like you, also can't proof you are right. Saying that god is nature impplies to re-consider what nature is, and you haven't done it. Read post 11 in this thread, it's mine and explains what I mean. If you don't study the manifestation of the language, you can never be studying what the language manifests. Easier to understand; if you don't study the talk of god, you cannot be studying 'god'. It's simply what postmodernismo has proven, and where philosophy has lead. If you ignore philosophy, you are an ignorant. And just as you said, existence without reality is nonsensical, and god has no reality, therefore god's existence is nonsensical.

PS: Anything that is divine has no more reality than that which is mythological. God (at least the gods from religions) has the same probability to exist as Hercules or Harry Potter.

[Mr. Nobody]

Gullie;
You almost intepreted the intent of my post correctly. Alomst, but not quite.
Please re-examine in detail what I wrote.
My argument is and was all along, for a nature as a stand-alone, subjected to emerging behaviour interpreted as laws. These laws paint(ed) a repetititve pattern, a pattern that we interpret(ed) as signs of intelligence. This pattern though evolved and still progresses against entropy without any help from anybody, neither eternal Good nor eternal Bad. I name this reality, the all inclussive and ever present, God for a lack of better terms. I understand the burden this word brings with it, but nevertheless chose it, to describe what I see as existence without beginning nor end, without reason nor intent, without purpose, as a "just is".
The term "nature" is often used to describe terestrial anatomy, restricting its meaning to our planet alone. Therfore, and in order to include all there is, I use the term God. God not as separate, but as an "us" in the commonwealth of all that is within and without

[chazzysaw]

Originally Posted by dleviwing Latter the concepts of a god became a political doctrine to control the social behavior of groups of humans just as it is being used today. It is the greatest money making scam of all human history and is only successful if you keep the majority of humans stupid enough to accept the dogma.

Yes I agree, God has turned into profit for many people and institutions. This God can be twisted, tumbled, made big, made small, he, she, it, he's with you when needed sent away when not.They are selling a portable God Thats how they keep people ignorant, and the people love it.

[chazzysaw]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie Vabrugar, science ain't science with god in it, sorry. And, mind can exist with no god belief, IMO. Your analogy is incomplete... regards

Why can't God be the science.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by chazzysaw Why can't God be the science.

If god has any relationship to science it is the antiscience. It is pure speculation, simple mysticism. Science is humanity's try to get rid of speculation, of mysticism, thus, of god.

[chazzysaw]

Originally Posted by Guille If god has any relationship to science it is the antiscience. It is pure speculation, simple mysticism. Science is humanity's try to get rid of speculation, of mysticism, thus, of god.

I am not saying that God has a relationship with science or use science as a tool or operates it from the clouds or heaven. I'm saying God is science.It appears to me your God is out there somewhere observing everything from the outside.The God I'm talking about is the Power with-in and with-out of everything. The power does not shine down on us, it shines from with-in us and shines out of us.Through the ages science has proven and explained it's findings in most cases.Religion on the other hand proves nothing, everything is base on faith. It's religion that try to keep us ignorant to the facts of science. They are afraid that science will prove there is no God. But it's their primitive religious concept of God that confuses them. "God works in mysterious ways" that is a nonsense statement. If you want to know how God works learn your science. You want to know the elements of water, learn your science.You want to know how the trees provide air for us to live, learn your science.You want to know the importance of our moons orbit, learn your science.Science has also proven the power of prayer.We have a long way to go but at lease we are learning. How long did it take for the Catholic religion to admit that Galileo was right? Religion must begin to embrace science and the same goes for science . The more I learn from science the more it enhances my belief in the Ground of being.

[mkirkpatrick]

[quote=chazzysaw]I am not saying that God has a relationship with science or use science as a tool or operates it from the clouds or heaven. I'm saying God is science.It appears to me your God is out there somewhere observing everything from the outside.The God I'm talking about is the Power with-in and with-out of everything. The power does not shine down on us, it shines from with-in us and shines out of us.Through the ages science has proven and explained it's findings in most cases.Religion on the other hand proves nothing, everything is base on faith. It's religion that try to keep us ignorant to the facts of science. They are afraid that science will prove there is no God. But it's their primitive religious concept of God that confuses them. "God works in mysterious ways" that is a nonsense statement. If you want to know how God works learn your science. You want to know the elements of water, learn your science.You want to know how the trees provide air for us to live, learn your science.You want to know the importance of our moons orbit, learn your science.Science has also proven the power of prayer.We have a long way to go but at lease we are learning. How long did it take for the Catholic religion to admit that Galileo was right? Religion must begin to embrace science and the same goes for science . The more I learn from science the more it enhances my belief in the Ground of being.[/quote
Well said there Chazzy,I go along with that,we can and do learn much from science,and before to long,physics will prove the existence of an absolute intelligence,and that will truly be a day to be joyful!"
kind regards michael.

[WithoutMe]

"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche.

For most part of the history of human civilization, "God" or the "gods", has turned out to be nothing more than an Utility, & that too, conceieved as the greatest of them all, a sort of CEO of Existence! No wonder, ppl spend a gr8 part of their lives, in trying to coax this Utility, for better returns, tho' it is a different matter, that all such coaxing is given the name of "prayer" & what not!

By trying to name the nameless, one is infact, in the first place, denying the nameless of its basic attribute, that being "nameless".... for if it really is nameless, y try to name it.... does one doubt its being nameless?

When one is attempting to nkow it, talk abt it, coax it, pray to it, wait for it, one is denying something or the other!

Regards,
wM.

PS. Can one act without some sort of denial?

[Vabrugar]

Originally Posted by chazzysaw I am not saying that God has a relationship with science or use science as a tool or operates it from the clouds or heaven. I'm saying God is science.It appears to me your God is out there somewhere observing everything from the outside.The God I'm talking about is the Power with-in and with-out of everything. The power does not shine down on us, it shines from with-in us and shines out of us.Through the ages science has proven and explained it's findings in most cases.Religion on the other hand proves nothing, everything is base on faith. It's religion that try to keep us ignorant to the facts of science. They are afraid that science will prove there is no God. But it's their primitive religious concept of God that confuses them. "God works in mysterious ways" that is a nonsense statement. If you want to know how God works learn your science. You want to know the elements of water, learn your science.You want to know how the trees provide air for us to live, learn your science.You want to know the importance of our moons orbit, learn your science.Science has also proven the power of prayer.We have a long way to go but at lease we are learning. How long did it take for the Catholic religion to admit that Galileo was right? Religion must begin to embrace science and the same goes for science . The more I learn from science the more it enhances my belief in the Ground of being.

I admit in the most strict rules the human science is a fact, except some of the theories adopted by scientist i.e., theory of evolution, theory of big bang, these are mere incomplete theories famed by humans, not a complete facts and not completely proved theories. Science may know the elements of nature, the roles of physics but it may never know the elements of supernature and metaphysics. Science may know the secrets of the universe but it will still be ignorance of the secrects humans. Catholic may be not right but catholics are not the only spiritualist. There are other metaphysician who may prove that the human science is a truth neophyte. The true religion embraces science and beyond science. The bible which is a thousand years ago already stated that the world is round, it also stated that the bamboo bears flowers. These few facts stated in the bible thousand of years ago were just lately discovered by the human science. If only today's scientists will embrace true religion and scripture then the theory of everything will be understand. But I admit there are a lot of fake religions existing, and finding the true religion is quite difficult and understanding the Bible is more difficult. But it's clear in the Bible that "everything which can be seen are temporary, but everything that can't be seen are eternal." I hope this bible quote will help the TOE quest although most of here are physicist. It's good to learn science, but our science is still not enough. This science waits time and future to discover the truth, but the truth is time is breakable. And in beyond, time and space doesn't matters.

__________________________________________________ ____________________
Even the stars die.
Blackhole could be anywhere.
I will ask science, what will happen after a centillion years?
But if eternity will be divided into centillion years it will still be eternity.