[r.p.bibra]

Gb;Self; Self does not appear or disappear. It is an eternal witness. The experience of mergence, brother IC speaks of can be compared with a cloud, covering the sun. Cloud is born out of the sun, but when it comes between the earth and the sun, earthlings think, sun is ‘gone’. As soon the cloud moves away, the sun is as resplendent as it was before. It did no go anywhere. It was there all the times, but our hindered sight could not perceive it. Similarly clouds of thoughts (mind) comes between the individual-self and the sun (Atma), when the mind is gone (steadied), we are our real-self i.e. ATMA (Self).

“a deep stud of the principles of science and spirituality that the atom is the basis of everything in the world. Even the foods we eat, the water we drink, the air we breathe, are all constituted by atoms. But there is something more subtle and fundamental than even the atoms. Everything has originated from the Fundamental Principle. Instead of trying to know the FP, man is getting carried away by the trivialities. Subtler than the atom, vaster than the cosmos, Divinity is present everywhere as the atma (soul/self) as the eternal witness. Try to experience the principle of the atma which transcends everything, in order to experience the Atma, you should pursue spiritual education along with secular education.”

Similarly Nirvan or Liberation (whatever is meant by it?), in simple terms, is freedom from sufferings. The freedom is reached at three levels viz. body, mind and Atma (soul). Freedom from hunger or disease is physical liberation. Controlling the vagaries of the mind is also a kind of freedom at mental level. But true liberation or Nirvan is in understanding the principle/Tathav of Atma: which is all pervasive. It neither comes nor goes. Buddha’s last commandment to his cousin Anandh was “Overcome Maaya (ignorance/mind) have the vision of Atma and attain Nirvan”.
“State” connotes ones’ nearness or elevation or enlightenment of wisdom in being ‘aware’ of the Atma-Tathav (Fundamental-Principle). In fact there is no state in the realization of the Self. Self has no states/stages; hence it is always realized in whole instantly. States are only in our mind, which connotes the level of its cleansing of the trash-filled storage and correspondingly getting wiser to that extent. Wisdom is removal of the trash in our minds and diverting its direction inward i.e. towards the Self. When the mind has understood its transient nature, it transforms into wisdom. Rest, later. With regards,ls.

[Graybeard]

from r.p.bibra (post number 26)............. SP = Supreme Intelligence AK = Acquired Intelligence .................... Graybeard; you have got the whole point wrongly. Ls. knows the meaning/relevance of science in our lives....................It is not understand as to how this divide, between the science & spirituality, has been created........ .................. In the quest, there is no room for a atheist or theist, because intelligence is pure logic. The source of our intelligence is the ‘Intelligence” in nature, whose totality could be referred to as Supreme-Intelligence (SI). If we accept that the source of our ‘acquired-intelligence’ is Nature, then we accept also that the core-reality (intelligence) of each creation is embodied in itself, the sum-total of reality of each creation, is Supreme-Intelligence.

..
Dear Rajinder ... I spent a great deal of time absorbing your post number 26. Thank you for the case studies. I have tried to condense your post down to the following statements. You are saying, and I hope I have read your post correctly, ....

a)...That the source of 'Intelligence' is in Nature. That this intelligence is actually the reality of existence, possibly life.

b)...That Nature is actually an entity, who has the control and distribution of this 'Intelligence'. (nature in this sense could loosely be referred to as , God, The Designer, Intelligent Design, etc)

c)...That all Homo-Sapiens, in fact all living Organic Species derive their Intelligence from the entity, Nature.

d)... That any one individual's 'intelligence', can be referred to using the term 'Acquired Intelligence'

e)... That the sum total of each individuals Acquired Intelligence can be referred to as 'Supreme Intelligence'. Furthermore, that Supreme Intelligence can be accessed as a resource by individuals who put the energy of their acquired intelligence into such disciplines as meditation and other esoteric practices. That a state of 'Nirvana' can be achieved where a supremely greater understanding of the Cosmos becomes available. That this state, once experienced is almost impossible to communicate to those who have an 'empirical' and 'materialistic' or 'rational' approach to the matter.

f)... That the above statements do not operate outside the Laws of Physics. Where they appear to, such as the examples of living on sunshine and water, are simply examples and areas of where the physics is poorly understood in relation to the 'Totality' of Supreme Intelligence.

I am going to assume that I have summated your post correctly in the statements a) .. f). Correct me in a future post if I have it wrong. Firstly, I am willing to listen to you on this doctrine and do my best to understand what you are communicating.

The only counterpoint I wish to raise here is concerning statement 'b'. I believe there is an alternative method in the explanation of statement 'b'. This method is as legitmate as your explanation, and has no effect on any of the other statements.

I am not making the claim that the alternative explanation is correct. I am saying that it is as legitmate as your explanation. In other words it cannot be proved wrong any more than your explanation can. If this is the case then you would have to admit it deserves serious consideration. Any proposal, that meets all the facts, and initially cannot be proved false, that operates within the laws of physics, deserves to be considered as a legitmate theory until tested and proven wrong. Do you agree?

Rajinder, you have said that I poorly understood both you and IC, also of doubting the veracity of your facts.. of not making a true effort to understand. Your interpretation of 'b' is subjective. It relies on something other than itself, an unknown proposed entity. My interpretation is objective, it will stand by itself. It does not require my support apart from communicating it to you.

r.b.bibra .....................It is not understand as to how this divide, between the science & spirituality, has been created........

I am proposing we discuss this divide only ... as I believe it occurs in statement b). I am willing to let all other statement a-f stand as they are

You have stated above that intelligence is pure Logic. Can we discuss these two interpretations. So far Science can prove neither one wrong, nor can it prove them right. We have nothing to lose. What do you think ??

Greg

PS: Lloyd, we may or may not be able to live on Sunshine, who knows. But some of us who have discovered alcohol as a source of food well in advance of medical science, may be able to live on Moonshine.

[Fluent Piffle]

Thank you for your most interesting post Ls Bibra,I too have been aware of these things. we in England are more grounded than some others who we know,and have the abilty to keep an open mind,"not so open as ones brains would fall out"If Imay so add! There is much to learn,and much to understand,ignorance and lack of grace,hinder many from seeing beyond the end of their hook noses.

Wow! Racism finds the TOE! And you're a 'moderator'?

Nice one!


pif.

[r.p.bibra]

gb (post 32)
Some corrections/clarifications
a). …………….core-reality (intelligence) of each creation is embodied in itself. Life principle is related to consciousness.
b) Creation (Nature) is not an entity; it is the composition of all its creations, sentient-insentient. God/The Designer, ID, have never been the subject of our discussion. Since you have used them, ls would like a comment on “The Designer” aspect; as the spermatozoon had in it your future design imprinted in it, so too the FS (as suggested by lq) has the complete design of the Creation!
c) “Senses collect the data, intellect discriminates& the gist/essence is ‘intelligence”. exact words.
d) “basis of our intelligence is science”, “the source of our is ‘intelligence in nature”, “if we accept that the source of our acquired-intelligence is Nature”, “Ak is not intelligence, as intelligence is ‘something’ which innovates, creates, not duplicate/emulate”, This is how ak was defined.
e) “The source of our intelligence is the ‘Intelligence” in nature, whose totality could be referred, as Supreme-Intelligence (SI)”. Exact words.
f)
‘Nirvana’ word was never used by ls., he simply borrowed it from you and did some elaboration. “Their tool of enquiry too is ‘intelligence’ but it not the intelligence, which is based on the acquired knowledge, but the Supreme-Intelligence (cosmic-consciousness)! “ ‘the energy of ak can be put into meditation’ . From where do you borrow such terminology? No other tool except of self-enquiry can be of any use; in meditation, ak of all kind is de-hoarded.
Who used the words “materialistic” ‘empirical” “rational” ?
Pending queries from an earlier post;

The ‘STATE” IC was referring to, is more easily accessible to the scientists as they possess high level of concentration, provided they put appropriated restraint on their senses.
Ls. Is blind to the awesome sights around him, he is more for insight than the sights without. He is sans any beliefs; no attachment to any religion or for that matter to any “ism!
advice:when you have learnt to withdraw your conscious from the mind,we shall a lot to learn from each other, otherwise we have nothing to gain except filling the pages! the one line gist of all the the religions& philosophical wisdom is "help ever, hurt never" , which is found amiss. love&regards.ls.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle Wow! Racism finds the TOE! And you're a 'moderator'? Nice one! pif.

Pif,you are mistaken if you believe that the above comments are racist,I assure you
they are not,I was responding to a remark regarding what "Americans" think,and was
indicating that we in England think differently thats all.

The reference to a hook nose,was much like the witch in cartoons,who always try and
spoil efforts of goodness and wholeness.


regards michael.

[Fluent Piffle]

And should we burn the witch, do you think?


pif.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle And should we burn the witch, do you think? pif.

No certainly not,what they need is to be re-oriented towards the right hand path,and
to discharge any attachment with the left handed path,be guided towards a positive
polarity and not a negative polarity.



regards michael.

[Graybeard]

Dear rajinder ...... Perhaps I miss interpreted some of your terms .... will reply soon

greg