Science 'versus' God?

[austintorn@aol.com]

very early spiritual historical records and documents that have their roots even to the edges of pre-history.....


I still have one old prehistoric computer and printer with some records on it. It is at least 5 years old now.

[austintorn@aol.com]

(Beliefs Con’t)

Does it get even worse after the initial assumption of just that there is a God, a nature spirit, or whatever, that is invisible?

Of course it gets worse, for then come more assumptions of the intent, nature, conditions, rewards and so forth of the supernatural realm behind the initial belief that merely hung in the air to begin with.

Are we done? Is the recession ever going to be over? Could there be any worse?

Yes, for there is then competition with other religions and with the complete infidels who believe in no God at all. It is usually he case that the mere existence of a competing view somehow seems to lessen the credibility of one’s own ‘sure thing’ belief. It may range from just ‘those other people are weird’ to having to fully protect one’s whole structure of belief built over many years and millenniums, i.e., thinking that those contrary people are not only weird and to be shunned as fools but also to be seen as ‘evil’ and treated as such.

Then it gets worser. Wars are fought on a high level and things like ‘you can’t marry out of your Faith’ on a lower level. A President named Younger Bush, consulted a ‘higher Father’ and got the final go ahead to wage war on Iraq.

OK, can it still get any worse, having adverse effects in other ways such as in more civilized ‘wars’? Sure, religion could and does lobby Congress against scientific progress and even make headway when trying to insist on their way. Religions could try to prevent some teachings of science in all schools and/or suppress it in their own private schools. Islamics could try to destroy the modern world. Christian scientists might refuse blood transfusions. The Pope banned birth control except for the rhythm method.

Does religion also have good points? Sure, where it matches and duplicates and reinforces civil laws of not killing, stealing, and treating anyone poorly or discriminating against. Do some people become better for fear of fire in Hell and/or from just civil penalties? Studies say morality for believers and nonbelievers is the same. Does it help aid the poor? Sure; it is one of the avenues. All systems of true good are useful, from some government programs to useful foreign aid to high school programs about being kind to all to life’s feedback and learning experiences to any good role model (excepting any of those those claiming some right to Vengeance).

Are not people free to do what they wish? Of course they are, but it helps to have informed decisions. I am only disproving God via science in a search for truth, not making any one do anything. That is only up to them.

Many religious beliefs fell as we made more discoveries. The Earth was round, not flat. We could see the roundness during a lunar eclipse. We could see the masts and tops of ships far away at sea before the hull came into view. We also found that the Earth was not the center of anything. The sun was the local center, but our solar system was still not the center of anything, nor was our galaxy.

This went against God-revealed scripture and so for a long while ‘evil’ people were burned at the stake or imprisoned for believing otherwise.

Newton discovered that objects in space move on their own, thus without a guiding hand. Einstein’s findings sense of everything high and low, big and tiny, far away and right here. There was noplace left for God. Darwin told us how natural selection explained the mysteries of evolution and the variety of life. The continuum extended from animals to us. We were no longer special, differing from chimps by not much. The discovery of genetics later collaborated all.

The QM realm has proved to be a fundamentally fuzzy state, virtual pluses and minuses popping out of it; that is, there is no cause, there are no hidden variables. This is not quite a ‘nothing’. Virtual particles may cancel, but they go back into the QM realm. If ‘nothing’ were exactly zero, then this ‘vacuum’ would not be vague and fuzzy. Thus, an absolute ‘nothing’ cannot exist. Its very definition means that it is not to be, that it, it could not even be there at all. There were quantum jitters; there was only possibility forever.

Often, the QM virtual particles spring into existence and vanish quickly, although they can interact and stay real. If not, they have to vanish so quickly that we cannot directly see them. If we could see them, then the QM realm would not be a vacuum, but, if they were not there the vacuum would be exactly ‘nothing’ and so it would violate the vague and fuzzy rule.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Our world is in a Macroshift. The reality we are experiencing today is a substantially new reality--climate change, global corporations, industrialized agriculture--challenging us to change with our rapidly changing world, lest we perish.


From my friend, Victor:

Belief in ancient myths joins with other negative forces in our society to keep most of the world from advancing scientifically, economically, and socially at a time when a rapid advancement in these areas and others is absolutely essential for the survival of humanity. We are now probably only about a generation or two away from the catastrophic problems that are anticipated from global warming, pollution, and overpopulation: flooded coastal areas, severe climatic changes, epidemics caused by overcrowding, and starvation for much of humanity. Such disasters are predicted to generate worldwide conflict on a scale that could exceed that of the great twentieth century wars, with nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable nations and terrorist groups.


In other news: In this thread, and worldwide, there is a conflict between rationalism and superstition to be resolved—and so my little part is to both see why and to disprove all superstition eventually, not just the God portion.


Absence of evidence that should be there is valid evidence of absence.


Another friend, Sam Harris asks:

Why did nineteen well-educated, middle class men trade their lives in this world for the privilege of killing thousands of our neighbors? Because they believed that they would go straight to paradise for doing so. Could anything have been more irrational, other than the responses of some Christian leaders that September 11 was God’s punishment or the work of the devil?


Faith is by definition belief in something for which no evidence exists.


We will continue to show here that evidence can even show that the God Theity does not exist and cannot exist.

[Mikal]

To all involved in following this thread could I suggest you go to:

Cosmicfingerprints.com and press on "If you can read this, I can prove God exists." It is an amazing site by Perry Marshall and this particular article can be listened to, viewed in video or followed by transcript.

Its about proof that DNA was designed by God or Mind....


Mikal

[Graybeard]

"If you can read this, I can prove God exists."

Mikal ... this is unfair .... I can't read ... do you have a site for braille ??

cool bananas ... greg

[Mikal]

No Greg...there is no site in Braille but I do have a shepherds staff that I can swish about you and scare the bejezzus out of you...lol...

Remember all is fair in love and war....smiles...


Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Cosmicfingerprints

It's already been shown that evolution, driven by natural selection, is a design without a designer. So, DNA is indeed a language that didn't have to be spoken or transmitted by a mind.

Descriptions of evolution are even here, earlier in this thread, on ToeQuest, in books, in my high school biology class, and on the internet.

One 'not interested in Darwin's dogma', I would think, would not be very well read on the fact of Evolution. Indeed, it was also proved again recently in a lab with 40,000 generations of bacteria.

The guy on cosmic fingerprints is 'just saying' that a mind must always precede the formation of a language, such as DNA, in this case.


The Darwinian evolution revolution indeed overthrew the notion of the fixity of the species, science once again conflicting with the Church by showing that Man is neither the purpose of Creation nor its end point. There was, then, no initial creation of immutable species, as 'God' claimed in his book.

In the face of the random winnowing of nature and time, purposefulness becomes a lost wish, plus the animals escape the hierarchy of inferiority to man, who, as we now know, is an animal as well. Man emerges clumsily and bloodily by chance from brutish animals, and, ultimately, from slime.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The Failures of Biblical Revelation

I wasn’t going to put much on this, since it’s well known, but, if anyone wants more, I could put a really huge section later on.

The Bible's record of prophecy is a miserable failure, for example:

Ezekiel 29,30. The land of Egypt will be laid waste by Nebuchadnezzar, and all its people killed and rivers dried up. It will remain uninhabited for forty years.

Um, this did not happen.

If the Bible is the product of human beings rather than a Divine Author, we can easily explain its historical, scientific and moral inaccuracies. It’s too bad that it didn’t have an explicit prophecy of somethings like man's landing on the moon. Just one thing like this would have really been something awesome, but, again, the facts can never fail in the disproof of God the Theity.

Instead, biblical prophecy is either vague, wrong, coincidence, a matter of ordinary prediction, or it can be more-simply explained as written after the fact.

Science and religion do have one thing in common: they are about the same reality, but religion is massively disconfirmed, the disproofs going on and on here ever more and more. Be patient, for some may take a bit of time to put together, even some easy ones (for example, 'Fine-tuning' will go quick, but it would still be good to go through some just apparently 'tough' ones individually).

There is even a massive amount of evidence that prayer doesn't work, disconfirming the hypothesis that there is a God who answers prayer. I can supply this later on, too, if desired.

All in all, the universe is ever as we would expect it to be if there were no God Theity.

Getting back to the Bible, “our conscience determines how we read what we regard as a sacred text," Victor says. "In all these cases, believers clearly read the Bible to find support for moral principles that they have already developed from some other source. Only a few lunatics nowadays take seriously the Bible's support for genocide or slavery.

"I hope I have make clear that while I wish people were less gullible, less willing to believe in the most preposterous supernatural notions, I still have high regard for the basic decency of most human beings. Many people are good. But they are not good because of religion. They are good despite religion.”

The Bible is indeed a mixed bag, containing some wisdom, common to humanity at that time, and much cruelty and ignorance, also typical of people at that time. The Bible is not uniquely wise. For laws that govern civil society, we might prefer Solomon to Moses. Humankind's holy books are what one would expect if they were products of human culture.”

[Profpat]

I'm sorry Austin I haven't been reading your posts, too wordy, plus you seem to be challenging various BELIEFS in God and not God himself.

So lets sucinctly summarize our position in a Creator God.

Your belief is that some mindless, senseless, Creator God called " Potential " created ALL things and gave Everthing the laws it has to follow. ( Giving everything the laws, it has to follow, that would be Intelligent Design. ) Something Darwin believed but not in the mindless, senseless, part of your belief.

I believe that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth was without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And so we are all free to believe what we want.

[Mikal]

Austin...continuing on with my questions about the mystery of our DNA, I would ask you how come researchers' like Gregg Braden can take the chemical elements of life in our DNA, being Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon and compare them to the letters in the Hebrew and Arabic Alphabet and it reveals that our every cell is encoded with the ancient name of God. This work and study revealed not only God's ancient name encoded into our every cell but also a literal message...."God/Eternal within the body." Why do these alphabets reveal God's ancient name in the cells of our species?? Surely we have a greater mystery in our DNA and a very strange connection to the ancient Alphabets, letters and letters coded with number values...
The letters of God's name within our bodies are universal regardless of such silly diversities like race, gender or culture....

Many scientists including those responsible for the discovery of the genetic code, suggest that the probability that life has arisen by chance borders on the miraculous. There appears to be a force in life which science cannot account for...it is an underlying intelligence I doubt you will ever disprove...


Mikal