Science 'versus' God?

[austintorn@aol.com]

....and we all love a good story... don't we just ...

As like our particular universe is just one of an infinite number of stories that are all kept in the Library of Babble. The sum of all their information content is zero (zilch); thus, Everything is Nothing.

I went there once, finding a book called 'Beyond Metaphysics', but… was it the correct variation, for there were so many other books with that same name.

[melanie]

He is seeing a brand new world every time he opens his eyes, something simply is,
he doesn't need to question anything,
it wouldn't even occur to him, because he is not aware of his own awareness.

I'm not sure who is better off, he's a really happy little dude.

... and did you know, cats are 'higher beings' above humans!

Austin knows he's got enough of them...lol

He is seeing a brand new world every time he opens his eyes

True, the world is being created brand new every second from scratch.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Austin knows he's got enough of them...lol

They are certainly higher than me, since I serve them and they just sit around not doing much.

Two of my newer cats.

[michael turner]

Why posit God at all though?

It is possible to just have a series of mothers capable of inducing variations in their daughters without a second sex to stir the pot, so to speak.

If God was male, clearly he isn't perfect, so is he really God?

You do not understand God from the Christian perspective, I am not sure you really want to understand all sides before you critize but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
God, Father, son, Holy Spirit is one God who has shown us his nature witch is the nature of "love within the family unit", it is an unconditional love, a self love that extends selfishlessly. The Family unit on Earth; man, woman, child is the image of the etenal God. The Holy Spirit we are taught is our comforter and also pure love. The mother in the family unit takes the role of love and comfort to the family. You Max, in order to continue to live on Earth from generation to generation need to pass on your genes, First you are a son, then husband, the role of love and comfort to your wife, and God willing, a father. You Max, intimately image the role of the eternal God in your lifetime and the process of procreation continues as we all continue the image of the nature of God, a loving family unit within the one God. God's nature is love, his image is the family bond..... I suggest there is always time to truly understand, with respect, the deeper point of view of the other side, even if the ones you are in a discussion with don't fully understand there own point of view, but still have faith in their belief.
Peace be with you,
- Michael Turner

[melanie]

See you all when the next universe bubbles forth.

It's a wrap! ... You're hired! ...


engage....................................0-60

Space, the final frontier.
These are the voyages of the starship troopers.
Its infinte mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no-one has been before. .....

Are you out of your Vulcan mind?

[melanie]

.

Reality... is genderless... sex differentiation ARE appearances only.


Real-IT-Y

Y-ou are IT


X IS THE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF THE NON-PHYSICAL Y = FEMALE/GOD/CREATION/HEAVEN

= The unknowing knowing known.

[melanie]

--when the lamb lies down with the lion... not literal ..'You' have awakened to the dream......

Jesus's second coming is an allegory.. REPRESENTING THIS TIMELESS ETERNAL NOW OF DIVINE PRESENCE .......THE real You.

JESUS >> a symbol ) 1 he is a lamb - 2 he is a lion

- a symbolic representation of the unity of polarities...IS both lion and lamb and neither.....0

[Mikal]

Why posit God at all though?

It is possible to just have a series of mothers capable of inducing variations in their daughters without a second sex to stir the pot, so to speak.

If God was male, clearly he isn't perfect, so is he really God?

Why posit Science? The God principle is no different than the particles science studies.
The active aspect you call energy, the ancient science called spirit. Did you ever consider that the scientitically provable electro-magnetic spectrum is the spectrum of spirit-being behind the phenomenon of matter and they could be synonymous??


Mikal

[Max™]

You do not understand God from the Christian perspective, I am not sure you really want to understand all sides before you critize but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Which branch of Christianity? I admit I haven't delved much into Catholicism, but I've attended services at Lutheran, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Jehova's Witnesses, I recall a Latter Day Saints I attended with a friend once, though I got hit by a car riding there the next time... kinda didn't go back.

I've read and considered many more biblical texts than just those covered by the churches I've been too, I've carried on an enormous number of theological discussions with people from a variety of faiths, I'd guess most were Christians of the vanilla American variety.

I went looking for answers, and came away with questions every time, do not mistake my distaste for religion as my being uneducated in it. It is a well earned, logical conclusion from decades of experience.

I am utterly faithless now, and better off for it.

God, Father, son, Holy Spirit is one God who has shown us his nature witch is the nature of "love within the family unit", it is an unconditional love, a self love that extends selfishlessly. The Family unit on Earth; man, woman, child is the image of the etenal God. The Holy Spirit we are taught is our comforter and also pure love. The mother in the family unit takes the role of love and comfort to the family.

Yeah, I caught that pretty quickly.

You Max, in order to continue to live on Earth from generation to generation need to pass on your genes, First you are a son, then husband, the role of love and comfort to your wife, and God willing, a father.

Indeed, except the god willing part anyway.

You Max, intimately image the role of the eternal God in your lifetime and the process of procreation continues as we all continue the image of the nature of God, a loving family unit within the one God.

No I do not, I am fleeting, and I love because I cannot help but appreciate those that I love, I prefer the Universe in a state where they are constantly crossing my path. I love because it is a good social action, being kind to others, helping with no expectations at all other than the satisfaction of seeing someone else in a better state.

I love because I cannot do otherwise, I am a romantic and an aesthete, a poet and a warrior, a child and a man and a lover and a scientist, not because of any outside forces guiding me to do so. They are not necessary, and perhaps it is just me, but the implication would then be that I could not love on my own, only with assistance from this divine being.

God's nature is love, his image is the family bond..... I suggest there is always time to truly understand, with respect, the deeper point of view of the other side, even if the ones you are in a discussion with don't fully understand there own point of view, but still have faith in their belief.
Peace be with you,
- Michael Turner

I've considered these concepts, trust me, while I may be young, of my nearly 30 years of life, I've spent the last 23 considering these ideas, looking for the answer to the one question I could not logically deduce from simple observation.

Why?
Who is irrelevant, I am myself, others are their own person, easily satisfies my curious nature for most cases.
When is strange, finding myself not at the beginning or end of a series of events, and the implication that there is a recursive series beyond this one was quite a shock as well, though I later came to realize there are simply a greater number of positions in the middle, somewhere left of center perhaps, than at either end, so logically I am existing now.
What is something I am personally working on, as my own logic drove me to seek the most fundamental descriptions of matter and interactions I could find... lo and behold I found two of them, an embarrassment of riches which has guided the trajectory of my life.
How is logically deductible from the nature of the what, though it is also an area of fascination of course.

That leaves the last big question I had as a child, "Why is it that I find myself within a Universe, rather than not? Would not a lack of a Universe be a more simple state for things to take?", logic guided me to religion, and over the years I've delved into it time and time again, seeking desperately a satisfying answer.

When your answer raises new questions, perhaps you need new questions, but perhaps your answer is lacking as well.

You see God as an answer and take comfort in that, I see God given as an answer and must then ask, who is it, where did it come from, what is it made of, how does it work? Why can't I observe any signs of it? When did it start making Universes? When will it stop?

etc, etc, etc, to ridiculous lengths.

Time and time again I went back to try a different church, a different interpretation of the books, a different preacher, a different group of people.

I simply can't do that any more, I've found more satisfying answers, I've given them before, and in the face of those answers, God is extraneous to me.

I do not need God, which is rather ironic, because God needs me to have faith to permit some sort of existence of the concept.

I do not have that faith, I have excised it, deeming it to be an idea virus with possibly harmful intent. It always seems like a shock to people when they hear this, it apparently isn't cool to tell other people that not only do you not share their beliefs, you think they would be better off without them.

Nonetheless, that is what I have learned about religion.

[Max™]

Why posit Science? The God principle is no different than the particles science studies.
The active aspect you call energy, the ancient science called spirit. Did you ever consider that the scientitically provable electro-magnetic spectrum is the spectrum of spirit-being behind the phenomenon of matter and they could be synonymous??


Mikal

I can observe events, I can ask questions about these events, I can form a hypothesis about the nature of these events, and test those hypothesis with experiments.

I can then point to those events and hand my data to someone and say "if you do this experiment, you will get this result, and this is why". They can confirm or deny this, and the process goes on.

Science is not a faith, I do not believe in science. Science is an accumulation of knowledge, understanding, and the ever encroaching limitations on experimental proofs.

Science is about finding ideas which you can conceive of ways to show them to be false, and then trying to do so. If you cannot falsify something, you can call it true.

I can point to that collection of data and list ways which it could be false, which have not been found yet, and any one with the interest can go ahead and try to test these ideas.

I can not point to God, I can not even think of a good hypothesis involving God which is falsifiable.

I can not observe any signs of God, simply labeling things differently is not proof of something, call it energy or spirit, it still behaves according to logically predictable rules which the Universe seems to follow to the letter.

Nowhere is there room in the models for God, so perhaps he is simply done with creation and just sits back to watch the show.

Very well, but in that case, as he has no interaction outside of the postulate of the initial cause, he may as well not exist.

If you consider two explanations of reality, one based on Science and involving God, and one based on Science alone, the God model is less simple, and does not explain events any better.