Science 'versus' God?

[austintorn@aol.com]

Hi Mikal,

(Michael and I belive in evolution and could each you some of it.)

Charles Darwin, working long before our DNA/genetics revelations of the 1950’s, was a Victorian era scientist who constructed his revolutionary theory of evolution through natural selection over a lifetime of meticulous observation and thought. It is perhaps the must powerful idea in science and still drives the contemporary research agenda.

Life was staggeringly dull a billion and a half years ago, and of course in the 12 billion years before that, the once steaming ocean having become a cold, thin, dreary broth of look-alike organisms. Eukaryotic cells with internal structures had appeared, but not yet were there any muticellular creatures. Life lazed through those doldrums for a million millennia. Imagine the lengths of these times.

Then some combination of environmental circumstance and genetic novelty triggered a wild diversification in the variety and complexity of animal life over tens of millions of years, climaxing in what is now called the Cambrian explosion.

By 530 million years ago the seas held a multitude of bizarre creatures—as now seen fossilized in the Burgess Shale, perhaps near where Graham of ToeQuest lives in Canada. As is often the case, many of those weird Cambrian monsters were evolutionary dead ends, but a certain few were the progenitors of every animal alive today.

Darwin’ real breakthrough was that evolution became inevitable, since of the organisms whose environment had changed, those who had reproductive success in that environment depended on inherited traits. Then, too, there was the simple mechanism of natural selection.

Since then, Darwin’s ideas have connected up with genetics, molecular biology, ecology, and embryology. Today, Darwin’s legacy is a larger, more richer, more diverse set of theories than he could have imagined.

[michael turner]

Complexity from simplicity doesn't mean that the universe had us in mind, just that we could be.

Not just could be but would be and are, as evidenced, and that my friend is the short comings of any scientific theory unless that so called scientific theory uses faith as a basis of their opinion. This faith comes in unusual forms, but it is still a form of faith.

( and Mikal, evolution is irrelevent in the subject of Science
vs. God )

[Mikal]

Here Austin I'll give you Darwins history a 2nd time...this is the result of his work you glorify.......

Austin…the correct term for “nefarious planners” is social engineers who are those fully endowed with the ability to manipulate the social forces which determine society.

How do you demean humanity for the objective to destroy the family based society we had and turn it into a Therapeutic Society?? I will give you one example which is going on right now as I speak.

We have in our society the presence of “young troubled families,” they are marked by the term “children having children” and young, immature families trapped in modern day states of poverty. These families were created by covert interference into the educational system for instance mandatory sex education which does not motivate abstinence while young but does promote being sexually active through the protection of condoms. Sex education on the surface looks like responsibility for the young but on deeper levels it links into the knowledge that young teens are passing through the process of natural hormonal activity as their body matures. It is not about modeling responsibility, it is about peaking the young teens into interest about sexual experience. Programs that deal with pregnant teens are set up for the attending teacher, on the basis “number of teens pregnant” determines if program will run next semester and if teacher will teach. (While a teen councilor, I actually witnessed these teachers approaching different councilors and asking if they could forget to distribute condoms because they needed 10 more pregnant girls to ensure their teaching position in the next semester. I actually observed these teaching centers and witnessed parties held to reward the girls for having babies. On the surface it looks like empowering self-esteem but on deeper levels it is sheer encouragement for more girls to have a 2nd baby. It links into their need for young attention and fulfills the teacher’s need to secure her teaching position.)

Let’s see what other covert interference created these young troubled families? There was the creation of “student welfare” and the creation of children’s rights legislation in 1973. On the surface this looks like modeling responsibility for children but on deeper levels it is linking into the natural stage of adolescent rebellion which is a normal stage of young development and these acts were not enacted for anything other than the creation of an open doorway to interfere into families rights over their own children and to let children know they can turn against their family, so it links into the stage of adolescent rebellion and uses it for nefarious purposes. (I actually sat in the cafeteria, just a small distance from a group of about 12 teens plotting the false accusation of abuse against a parent in order to approach student welfare and secure in their words…a pad to party in.)

So what are these created “young troubled families” all about? Well they ensured the structuring of a huge Justice System, busy courts and the daily bread for judges, lawyers, court employees and the creation of outer social institutions which would function in coordination through subtle links. Those institutions are CAS and other pertinent institutions psychological and psychiatric in nature. They are simply Utopian Theorists who were determined to destroy the meaning of family and in the void replace the thought that family is no more than a structure that is oppressive, twisted and insane. You see these utopians have never understood how to deal with the messiness of life. (I actually sat in my first College Family Studies Class and heard a University professor deliver to a young, impressionable group of students fresh out of highschool, the message, “The family is no longer sacred.” I was older as was two other students and we quickly critiqued the opening.) Now is that statement, a theory, an ideologue, misinformation or propaganda??

Darwin was just a small step in a structure of many steps that moved us into being A THERAPUETIC SOCIETY.

[austintorn@aol.com]

We've already proved that a dice rolled, with the beginning coming from the eternal causeless realm and that the mass density of the universe sums to the near 'nothing' of the quantum tunneling—the uncertainty, which proof matches out thought experiment that whatever had no cause could thus have no design and so had to be an indeterminate chaos, as seen.

So, since God cannot be, there is nothing that He did.

That’s the beauty of the proof—it cut Him off at the source.

Then, just for fun, and to give every chance, we looked everywhere else, finding only the natural and no supernatural.

[michael turner]

Do you not see that you exhibit your own faith in an external chaos? Do you not comprehend the fatal flaw in your argument? It is the same trap, with different terms, but your assumptions require faith.

[Mikal]

Hi Mikal,

(Michael and I belive in evolution and could each you some of it.)

Charles Darwin, working long before our DNA/genetics revelations of the 1950’s, was a Victorian era scientist who constructed his revolutionary theory of evolution through natural selection over a lifetime of meticulous observation and thought. It is perhaps the must powerful idea in science and still drives the contemporary research agenda.

Life was staggeringly dull a billion and a half years ago, and of course in the 12 billion years before that, the once steaming ocean having become a cold, thin, dreary broth of look-alike organisms. Eukaryotic cells with internal structures had appeared, but not yet were there any muticellular creatures. Life lazed through those doldrums for a million millennia. Imagine the lengths of these times.

Then some combination of environmental circumstance and genetic novelty triggered a wild diversification in the variety and complexity of animal life over tens of millions of years, climaxing in what is now called the Cambrian explosion.

By 530 million years ago the seas held a multitude of bizarre creatures—as now seen fossilized in the Burgess Shale, perhaps near where Graham of ToeQuest lives in Canada. As is often the case, many of those weird Cambrian monsters were evolutionary dead ends, but a certain few were the progenitors of every animal alive today.

Darwin’ real breakthrough was that evolution became inevitable, since of the organisms whose environment had changed, those who had reproductive success in that environment depended on inherited traits. Then, too, there was the simple mechanism of natural selection.

Since then, Darwin’s ideas have connected up with genetics, molecular biology, ecology, and embryology. Today, Darwin’s legacy is a larger, more richer, more diverse set of theories than he could have imagined.

Creation and evolution go hand in hand. Evolution per se has to do with the development of natural intelligence, which is itself a progressive spiritual faculty.

Intelligence, Mind and Consciousness are not the same thing. They are three distinctively different principles. Intelligence (sentience) forces change in the field of Consciousness by using the principle of Mind to induce the soul nature to adapt to it. This thereby generates an increasingly wider sense of interest, purpose and permanent responsibility in the soul entity.

There is theory and then there is the experience where inner perceptual consciousness is involved in a progression through a series of critical points of individualization or greater self-realization and a soul entity through its own evolutionary efforts arrives at a definite point of spiritual self-consciousness.

This is not a theory, I experienced it!!!!!


Mikal

[michael turner]

****GOD AND THE DARWINIST

One day a group of Darwinian scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one Darwinist named Charles to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. Charles walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things through science, so why don't you just get lost." God listened very patiently to Charles, and replied with a suggestion, "Very well, how about this? Let's have a man-making contest. But to be fair, we both have to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."**** To which Charles happily agreed, "Sure, no problem," and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of clay. God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. First, create your own clay."

[austintorn@aol.com]

faith

Michael,
We straight out observe the randomness of the quantum realm. Faith is for invisible unknowns unseen.


Mikal,
Now, what is your disproof of evolution? It's only fair that you provide the details.

[leskey]

Attainment of higher consciousness is evolution...without it, we're all animals.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The gift of being is not a present from a Giver, something that was handed out, donated, an offering, bestowal, bonus, award or an endowment. The gratuity of our largesse, the so-called perk and benefaction of our being was a benefit of the way the universe was/is—the luck of our path through evolution.

Life Savor

Oh thee, of thine, whence came this life of mine?
I wish to thank thee for this living wine.
Oh Nature, Father Time, Guiding Star—
Thanks for throwing me this earthly lifeline.


Opportune

Be wide aware when chance shines as your sun,
For she, in turn, happens on everyone—
Graciously welcome the lady of luck
By recognizing her as Dame Fortune.


The Balance Sheet of Existence

Life on Earth is death’s borrowed debit;
We spend this life on good fortune’s credit;
We’re not God’s puppets, but free of the strings;
Dispensing with angst, we’re free to live it.


Luck Happens

Asteroids swept away many species;
Two chromosomes fused, leaving chimps behind;
RNA remembers all survivors;
Good fortune smiled on Homo Sapiens.



The Meadows of Heaven

We, of the highest consciousness and of the most versatile form, so far as we know, reside as the ultimate beings in this rarefied realm of the Earth—as we are among the most fortuitous creatures that the universe has ever wrought; in fact, we ARE the universe come to life—necessarily from a long line of many fortunate accidents, via the possibility of the causeless potential.

It had to be this way, for any universe in which we could appear would have to be suitable for us or we wouldn’t even be around to discuss it. Looking back in time, we already know, ahead of time, that we will see what might have doomed us if some events had gone another way. All this we know and expect because we are here.

Perhaps, in some other ‘wheres’, junkyard universes litter the omniscape in every direction, for they all flunked, failed, and miscarried—maybe a quadrillion trillion universes broken down for every one that worked to any extent.

In some of these forlorn universes, perhaps the material was inert and so it just sat there and did nothing forever. In others, perhaps gravity was insufficient or had no natural place to collect particles, although those particles may even have been somewhat similar to ours, and so it thinned out endlessly and spread coldly toward infinity. In yet others, again, even those in the same ballpark as ours, perhaps the portions weren’t quite right, and although they may have formed a few elements, they went no further after that for a zillion years.

In our universe, the dark chest of wonders of Possibility and Probability opened up in just the just right way, and naked ‘quarks’ spewed forth, among other things, and boiled and brewed in one of the steamiest broths ever cooked up. They somehow simmered and combined into the ordinary matter of protons, neutrons, and so forth. Quite independently, by some unknown means, dark matter and energy arose, as well, in exactly the right mix, and, perhaps, too, some very long filaments, called cosmic strings, may have formed and survived long enough to be useful as collection agents; they were merely imperfections, as in an unevenly freezing pond—a kind of a cooling flaw.

None of these various independent happenings were related or connected to the others, but by lucky fate, but, ‘fortunately’, the cosmic strings attracted, by their gravity, both dark and ordinary matter, which, in turn, attracted even more of the same.

The pearls of embryonic galaxies arose and were strung along these cosmic necklaces, as can be noted even now. So it was that some almost incidental irregularities, frozen out as cosmic anchors, were latched onto by matter, both light and dark, the proportionate portions of which were favorable, as well, the dark matter dwarfing our ordinary matter for some reason of a happy ‘circumstance’. Fortuitously, as well, anti-matter, if there ever was any, did not fully cancel out all of the ‘uncle-matter’.

The universe could not foresee any of this in and of itself’s ‘fundamental’ substance(s) emitted, for, if it could, then we’d only have the larger and near infinite problem of how the foreseer could have been foreseen, ad infinitum… So, it would have been, at best, like the ‘trying’ out of all possibilities in superposition… really just a brute force happening of paths gone down at random.

We know much of the rest of the story—how the stars and supernovae created the elements, which combined into molecules, which, auspiciously, became able to replicate themselves and progress to make cells, tissues, and life.

And then there was oxygen, a mere waste product of photosynthesis by bacteria, and later, plants, that could fill the lungs, as well as build an ozone layer of protection from the harmful rays of outer space. Luck on top of luck, good fortune, and then prosperity, ‘stumbled along’ the right path.

Of course, all this took billions upon billions of years—and it is this long ‘yardstick’ that both baffles the mind, sticks in the throat, and demonstrates the long time lag need to produce even the tiniest of advances. It bears all the hallmarks of randomness at work.

Dinosaurs roamed the Earth for over two hundred million years—imagine the length of that—supreme and invincible from all but their own kind—the kings of all the Earth ‘forever’, on land, sea, and even in the air—heading towards forevermore and beyond, but…

Dame Fortune again intervened when the asteroids or some such catastrophe finished the dinosaurs as well as over 90% of the existing species. This random event left a vacuum in which new species could thrive.

Proto-man gave way to near-man and thence to us, eventually, when two chromosomes fused together, making us incompatible with the chimps—and so our ancestors then truly descended from the trees! We came to need no specialized niches, since we could adapt to any terrain, having brains that could learn much more after birth than instinct could bestow before. Our higher level consciousness was the crowning glory—we had won the human race—the be all and end all—the grand prize, the largest lottery. So, there is nothing more, aside from our own progress to be and learn.

DNA remembers every step—and you can see this in fast motion when embryos form simply in the liquid womb, replicate, and grow cells that diversify into a human being. Four billion years compresses into the nine months of pregnancy.

So, then, hail, and good fortune, fine fellows and ladies, and welcome to all of you to the Meadows of Heaven—the highest point of all being, although we are surely still in our infancy. The path chosen by potential ends here, with our consciousness, for now. The design and the role of mankind is now in our hands. We were borne here upon the shoulders of so many who have long since come and gone, advancing the cause, over eons of wiles.

Fare thee well, fine friends, for we are some of the luckiest sons and daughters of being in a rare universe well done. Celebrate. Live. Be.