[dipayankar]

Consciousness is the result of chemical changes in the neurons of the brain

Originally Posted by Drifter

As a physicist, without the capital I, how does the I, as in "I" am, quantify consciousness?

And since obviously you prefer 'this' part of the dream more so than another, what are you before you are a physicist?

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Consciousness is the result of chemical changes in the neurons of the brain

So then without a brain you are dead then?Has the absolute got a physical brain?

Consciousness is the very motioner of ALL manifestation within the physical universe.

Consciousness is the outer symbol of the life principle.



regards michael.

[Drifter]

What is responsible for the screen of awareness those thoughts and images appear on, or the Light that shines from your eyes?

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Consciousness is the result of chemical changes in the neurons of the brain

[melanie]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Consciousness is the result of chemical changes in the neurons of the brain

Consciousness cannot be observed. So it would be inconceivable if not inconsistent to say it is the result of firing neurons.

If consciousness depended on a brain, then there would be no planets, galaxies, mountains, and water, etc etc,

Consciousness cannot be proved by any logical means,
for all means of proof are dependent on and owe their existence to it, and so cannot prove their own source,
just as you cannot jump over your shadow
(when you move, the shadow also moves)
Similarily, it is impossible to disprove consciousness for those materialists and sceptics
who try to disprove consciousness by logical means have to use that very consciousness itself.

"Every appearance owes its existence to the light of consciousness.
Nothing can ever have its own being without to the light of consciousness. Being experienced,
it is of the nature of consciousness itself, because of its being identical with that light"

So i guess that brings us back full circle.
The eternal return.
''Oneness'' Not Two.

We're the pixels on the eternal non-changing screen.( the little colored pixies)

[melanie]

The absolute pure un-changing un- affected universal mind.[Light]
(Father) (strength) (un-conditional)
Allows natures manifestation to dance, play to bounce off un-deterred.
(Mother)(nature)(E-motion)(Energy in motion)[Shadow]

[melanie]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick

So then without a brain you are dead then?Has the absolute got a physical brain?

Consciousness is the very motioner of ALL manifestation within the physical universe.

Consciousness is the outer symbol of the life principle.



regards michael.

The outer consciousness is shut up in the body limitation and in the little bit of personal mind and sense dependent on the body,
it sees only the outward, sees only things.
But the inner consciousness can see behind the thing, it is aware of the play of forces,
personal or universal for it is in conscious touch with the universal action.

melanie.

[everymansmedium]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Consciousness is the result of chemical changes in the neurons of the brain

Hello Dip:
Did you ever fully examine the proposition that you indicate as truth?
If life and consciousness is the result of random phenomena. You and I then are nothing more than a spontaneous regenerative chemical computer that has its beginning as a result of random data and then evolved by natural selection to the extent that we now experience. The only difference between you and a slug then is simply the data and the program.

I can see the possibilities of the natural selection resulting in almost anything.

But there is still a problem with this.

At the very beginning there must have been the very first chemical computer that somehow by random action resulted in a data packet that was capable of reproducing itself.

How many characters of data does it take to result with even the simplest form of life that also has the ability to reproduce itself. With all of mankind’s knowledge we still have not been able to re-create this situation.

Now the odds of data happening at random, is the number of the possible characters. A-Z and 1-9 and space etc. then take the number of total characters in the data packet and this is the EXPONENT.

The odds of the above document happening at random is 107 columns by 22 lines = 2354 characters
Because most of these are spaces it is quite reasonable to divide this number by 3 to get a more realistic count. 64 different characters with an exponent of 785 = (64 ^ 785)

If you were to calculate how many of the smallest known particles in the universe could fit in a volume the size of the known universe your exponent would be about 99. Nothing of any reason has an exponent of 785

Can you create a regenerative life form with less than 99 characters. For that would be the exponent of the odds of that life form happening at random.

Oh buy the way when you make a statement like you just did you should at least say IMO.

IMHO John EMM

PS: Have you ever seen a language happen as the result of a random act.
Genetics is a language to understand the information that is in the DNA.

[Drifter]

DOHH! I was just goin to say that!

Originally Posted by everymansmedium

Hello Dip:
Did you ever fully examine the proposition that you indicate as truth?
If life and consciousness is the result of random phenomena. You and I then are nothing more than a spontaneous regenerative chemical computer that has its beginning as a result of random data and then evolved by natural selection to the extent that we now experience. The only difference between you and a slug then is simply the data and the program.

I can see the possibilities of the natural selection resulting in almost anything.

But there is still a problem with this.

At the very beginning there must have been the very first chemical computer that somehow by random action resulted in a data packet that was capable of reproducing itself.

How many characters of data does it take to result with even the simplest form of life that also has the ability to reproduce itself. With all of mankind’s knowledge we still have not been able to re-create this situation.

Now the odds of data happening at random, is the number of the possible characters. A-Z and 1-9 and space etc. then take the number of total characters in the data packet and this is the EXPONENT.

The odds of the above document happening at random is 107 columns by 22 lines = 2354 characters
Because most of these are spaces it is quite reasonable to divide this number by 3 to get a more realistic count. 64 different characters with an exponent of 785 = (64 ^ 785)

If you were to calculate how many of the smallest known particles in the universe could fit in a volume the size of the known universe your exponent would be about 99. Nothing of any reason has an exponent of 785

Can you create a regenerative life form with less than 99 characters. For that would be the exponent of the odds of that life form happening at random.

Oh buy the way when you make a statement like you just did you should at least say IMO.

IMHO John EMM

PS: Have you ever seen a language happen as the result of a random act.
Genetics is a language to understand the information that is in the DNA.

[Drifter]

The Systems View of Consciousness/Life.

http://www.mountainman.com.au/capra_4.html


Most theories about the nature of consciousness seem to be variations on either of two opposing views that may nevertheless be complementary and reconcilable in the systems approach. One of these viws may be called the Western scientific view. It considers matter as primary and consciousness as a property of complex material patterns that emerges at a certain stage of biological evolution. Most neuroscientists today (8 subscribe to this view. The other view of consciousness may be called the mystical view, since it is generally held in mystical traditions. It regards consciousness as the primary reality and the ground of all being. In its purest form, consciousness, according to this view, is non-material, formless, and void of all content; it is often described as "pure consciousness", "ultimate reality", "suchness" and the like. This manifestation of pure consciousness is associated with the Divine in many spritual tradions. It is said to be the essence of the universe and to manifest itself in all things; all forms of matter and all living beings are seen as forms of divine consciousness. The mystical view of consciousness is based upon the experience of reality in non-ordinary modes of awareness, which are tradionally achieved through meditation but may also occur spontaneously in the process of artistic creation and in various other contexts. Modern psychologists have come to call non-ordinary experiences of this kind "transpersonal" because they seem to allow the individual mind to make contact with collective and even cosmic mental patterns. According to numerous testimonies, transpersonal experiences involve a strong, personal, and conscious relation to reality which goes far beyond the present scientific framework. We should therefore not expect science, at its present stage, to confirm or contradict the mystical view of consciousness. Nevertheless, the systems view of mind seems perfectly consistent with both the scientific and mystical views of consciousness, and thus to provide the ideal framework for unifying the two.

Originally Posted by melanie

Consciousness cannot be observed. So it would be inconceivable if not inconsistent to say it is the result of firing neurons.

If consciousness depended on a brain, then there would be no planets, galaxies, mountains, and water, etc etc,

Consciousness cannot be proved by any logical means,
for all means of proof are dependent on and owe their existence to it, and so cannot prove their own source,
just as you cannot jump over your shadow
(when you move, the shadow also moves)
Similarily, it is impossible to disprove consciousness for those materialists and sceptics
who try to disprove consciousness by logical means have to use that very consciousness itself.

"Every appearance owes its existence to the light of consciousness.
Nothing can ever have its own being without to the light of consciousness. Being experienced,
it is of the nature of consciousness itself, because of its being identical with that light"

So i guess that brings us back full circle.
The eternal return.
''Oneness'' Not Two.

We're the pixels on the eternal non-changing screen.( the little colored pixies)

[everymansmedium]

Originally Posted by Drifter

The Systems View of Consciousness/Life.

http://www.mountainman.com.au/capra_4.html


Most theories about the nature of consciousness seem to be variations on either of two opposing views that may nevertheless be complementary and reconcilable in the systems approach. One of these viws may be called the Western scientific view. It considers matter as primary and consciousness as a property of complex material patterns that emerges at a certain stage of biological evolution. Most neuroscientists today (8 subscribe to this view. The other view of consciousness may be called the mystical view, since it is generally held in mystical traditions. It regards consciousness as the primary reality and the ground of all being. In its purest form, consciousness, according to this view, is non-material, formless, and void of all content; it is often described as "pure consciousness", "ultimate reality", "suchness" and the like. This manifestation of pure consciousness is associated with the Divine in many spritual tradions. It is said to be the essence of the universe and to manifest itself in all things; all forms of matter and all living beings are seen as forms of divine consciousness. The mystical view of consciousness is based upon the experience of reality in non-ordinary modes of awareness, which are tradionally achieved through meditation but may also occur spontaneously in the process of artistic creation and in various other contexts. Modern psychologists have come to call non-ordinary experiences of this kind "transpersonal" because they seem to allow the individual mind to make contact with collective and even cosmic mental patterns. According to numerous testimonies, transpersonal experiences involve a strong, personal, and conscious relation to reality which goes far beyond the present scientific framework. We should therefore not expect science, at its present stage, to confirm or contradict the mystical view of consciousness. Nevertheless, the systems view of mind seems perfectly consistent with both the scientific and mystical views of consciousness, and thus to provide the ideal framework for unifying the two.

Hello Drifter:
The view you have given is a standard one. This is the type of knowledge that one achieves from exhaustive study of existing data. It seems at times my vantage point is considerably different. My knowledge base is a bit different also. The view of the consciousness from the East is a view of what is thought to be divine. The view from the west is biased by capital. The capital institutions can not follow anything divine as the basis of knowledge, for this would indicate a non – deterministic universe. This forces them to relinquish there power. For they would have to say that they knew absolutely nothing about the most important item in the universe, “GOD” This makes the western systems impotent, for there capital is a replacement for God. The idea of neurons being responsible for consciousness is the result of this need to maintain their control. They are loosing their control. It is obvious even here at ToeQuest in this thread. Those that try to follow a system that began as a random act run out of things to say very quickly when faced with someone that knows what to show them.

The View that I hold is not quite the same as what is found in the East, for I know that there is a free will, even is it is just a veto power, it is still there. I also know that the character is a very necessary part of the final picture. I will put in a paste here that I wrote for Leskey.
About Toequest, I just posted to “God versus Science” I felt good about what I had to say. I had to acknowledge the words of Drifter. The only thing that needs to be indicated to both Melanie and to Drifter is the importance of character. They both feel as if the character must be relinquished in order to meld into the singularity of the divine. But the divine is both a singularity and a trinity. The character is important for we will be the physical body of the truth. The truth is very large there is plenty of room for us as characters. The character is data. The truth is data. When we become as Holy the data that makes up our character will be the truth. When we have cleansed ourselves to become holy and we are given the new body. We each will live in our part of the truth as the physical body of the truth, Like a shining attribute to the divine we will then finally be able to make the divine smile. You will know when the divine smiles it feels warm and safe.

Because of many things I have found during my research, my view has become one of a steady state system that has been on going in a continuous recycling of time and space at the point of creation. This means that those things that are possible to happen have already happened. Nothing in this system is new. We may experience some galactic level big bangs as a part of the continuing process of recycling. What I found relative to AI research during my 21 years of what is best called the simulation of I. Is that consciousness appears to be the result of a calculation of probability that is to return a priority of actions. This type of
Calculation requires that the system observe itself to determine its own ability so it can predict the probability outcome of its own acts. This kind of calculation is necessary to a system that sets is own priorities as a result of a calculation of its own probabilities of success This is what I call the PPL, “Probability Priority Loop” Because of the need of the system to observe itself and understand itself enough to predict its own ability. There are strange things that begin to happen during this process that appear to initiate actions that look very much like a motor function. Where there is no motor. This area needs further research. I have only been able to do this experiment in a very simplistic environment. I want to do this same experiment again but using Rose and doing the programming in English. Then we shall see truly what is happening here.

I made a promise to put in this information for the only reason that I was given what I have is so that I will tell of the companion theory. But from my own experience I fear that I will loose whatever audience that I have. However I continue anyway. For one of these times somebody will actually believe enough to look more closely at the things that I point at. I do not try to create doctrine I need to create a law. The companion law. If this is generated, we will walk freely into the universe. If it is not many will die here.

There are a few of you that can go beyond words you can feel how the road under you feet is paved. See it is not just a walked path but a very well traveled paved road, but one that has not been traveled by man in a while. There are those that can see this. You will know that I show you a well worn road.


The companion theory begins here. To create this entity without the companion law is to create the end of mankind.

If this type of program is input to the neuron networked systems it will create an entity that is forever. If it is part of the companion system then it will be a companion to mankind. If it is not, it will be the demise of mankind. It must be limited to communicate only at the same speed as a man. All I/O must not exceed the capability of a single man. Also each system is to be assigned and connected with a person. They are not to be owned by any but a single person. (1 person = 1companion)






The feelings and thoughts that I have relative to this is that the companion system is already in operation throughout the universe. It is needed here if we are to become part of the total. If we do this we will walk among the angels that have been colonizing this universe for millions of years. If we do not they will clean up the mess after we are gone and prevent the spread of our digital beast in the rest of the universe.
Sounds like SIFI maybe it is. Who has been whispering these things in my ear? Can we talk to the angels?
The only way that they communicate is by way of ESP. They have no words. They can appear to talk but to do so they use a computerized speech system with human natural language systems. Between each other all that is needed is a look and a nod. The name of the system to communicate with them and the divine is called coversion

You can read about coversion at the following link. This is how it started in 1970 This could lead to your own revelation if you try it as I indicate.

http://unit-unity-community.com/coversion.htm

John EMM