Science 'versus' God?

[melanie]

AT:

Yet, it was only imagined,

and totally lacking in support from the direct experience of the world.

Well...NOW....Imagine THAT!

[melanie]

Dip:

Isn't God a creation of the Human Mind?

Isn't Human a creation of the God Mind?

[austintorn@aol.com]

Now that about 5 differing sure things have been just proclaimed here as certain pronouncements by posters, let's move on to a multitude of such wonders of absolute knowledge:

Random Sampling

of Arbritrary Pronouncements

[Often Differing]

from Higher Mammals’ Minds

Near a Star Called Sol on a Spiral Arm

of the Milky Way Galaxy

When Speaking of/for God and His Nature

1. It is absolutely self-evident that ‘invisibles’ [of God] can be SEEN within us. No changes required; just live it. Case closed. Or not.

2. One can see that God’s work is imprinted in nature. Or not.

3. Changes are required since one knows that God’s will is: that ego should be banished in order to become closer to Him. Or not.

4. We believe that life is/isn't a test given by God.

5. Non acceptance of God is the only unpardonable sin. Or not.

6. God is/isn't defined as in my faith only.

7. We say that God can/cannot be known directly.

8. Hell/Heaven/Angels/Devil types are/aren’t.

9. A particular prophet, among many, received the right information from God, but not all of the others.

10. God is absolutely all loving / vengeful at times.

11. The spirit seems to reside in the pineal gland.

12. A NDE could be a peeking into Heaven or a seeing of inter-dimensional ET beings.

13. One can be with God during deep meditation. Or not.

14. We are ‘nothing’ characters of the Perfect Awareness’ dreams, that is, illusionary.

15. The material/mineral/vegetable was not made by God but was shaped into us and nature by Him. Or not.

16. Change to ‘what is’ is/isn't required in life.

17. Something does/doesn’t happen after death.

18. We do/don’t reincarnate.

19. God did/didn’t guide evolution.

20. An OBE could is/isn’t a spiritual experience.

21. God is/isn't a Person.

22. God existed forever.

23. God made Himself.

24. God does/doesn’t intercede in human affairs.

25. God requires / doesn’t require adoration.

25. God is an origin rather than a Creator.

26. God is a Creator rather than an origin.

27. Jesus is/isn't Divine.

28. God is all knowing, has unlimited power, and is everywhere.

29. Only Catholics will make it to the afterlife.

30. One may / may not repent sins and be totally forgiven.

31. The Biblical God is/isn't the true God.

32. God sent extra information to the Mormons. Or not.

33. The Jews are God’s chosen people. Or not.

34. God answers prayers. Or not.

35. God is a Theity not a Deity.

36. God is a Deity not a Theity.

37. There is one God / many Gods.

38. God wills Alaska’s projects (Sarah Palin).

39. God is the quantum wave function of the universe, being more of a Ground-of-Determination.

40. God created / did not create Adam and Eve directly, wholly formed.

41. The bible is literal/symbolic.

42. There are /aren’t 72 virgins for a martyr and 72 free seats in Heaven for the friends of the martyr.

43. If you do not believe as we do, you are doomed.

44. Evil spirits do/don’t cause mental and physical ills.

45. All of It is illusion/real.

46. An invisible soul is inserted at birth.

47. God resides inside/outside of our universe.

48. The soul does/doesn’t duplicate and retain a person’s unique nature of associations, memory, and reasoning after and/or before death.

49. The spirit in consciousness makes decisions in life, not the mind-brain. Or not.

50. God wants thinks that one should/shouldn’t convert others through preaching your faith.

51. When you die it is because God called you and nothing to do with the natural workings of nature.

52. There is/isn’t a Holy Spirit.

53. Miracles happen. Or not.

54. The Earth is only 4000 years old. Or not.

55. Evolution never happened. Or it did.

56. Allah has an interest in women’s clothing.

57. Certain books should/shouldn’t be excluded from the bible.

58. All was created in 6 days.

59. God is/isn't meant as good role model.

60. We are surely to blame for the sins of our ancestors. Or not.

61. Our free will must / need not match God’s will.

62. God does/doesn’t work in mysterious ways.

63. What the mind can imagine must be true of God.

64. I do/don’t feel God’s presence (Mother Theresa).

65. Using the mind to formulate beliefs about what is not known makes it known.

66. There is no mystery to solve for the design of God but only for the design of Earth and its creatures.

67. Humans were made special, above and beyond the other species.

68. God’s influence extends to every atom, and what they are made of and what they combine into. Or not.

69. God is the answer; no further analysis needed; case closed; don’t worry about the larger question introduced by this ‘answer’.

70. Anger is appropriate toward nonbelievers. Or not.

71. I do not have to present extraordinary evidence for my extraordinary claims. Why is the onus on me?

72. Those opposite wrong believers from us seem weird—and their culture does, too. How could they be so off? Our way will prevail.

73. The Root of All Evil: Let’s tell people what they must believe about our ideology.

74. Evidence is not even conceivable, by definition, so, please have belief and faith, for it is ‘trustworthy’.

75. Bahaullah is the phrophet to be believed now; another may not come for 1000 years.

76. … our eyes cannot detect any entity smaller that the shortest wavelength of light our visual system can process. Therefore, the atom and all concepts of smaller entities are inventions of the human mind, built according to a logical, rational, and coherent system of thought.

77. Amen to all the variances of 'sure things'.

[melanie]

It is only our ego driven, compartmentalized senses that creates the illusion of boundaries and barriers.
We have, and will continue to die to defend this illusion in the pursuit of fear driven needs for protective or aggressive power and control.
We are slave to the ego's definition of the personal, social, and political implications that follow from that illusion.

Welcome to .... God/Creation/Heaven .... SHE is the Good ONE .... SHE is Love.

[melanie]

Austin:

Now that about 5 differing sure things have been just proclaimed here as certain pronouncements by posters,
let's move on to a multitude of such wonders of absolute knowledge:

A novel newer condensed version IS as follows .... ... ... ..... THAT came out like an arrow.

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there lies a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about." ~Rumi~


And the grass continues to grow all by itself
Oh, the sweet green green grass of ...HOME

[austintorn@aol.com]

Many of the claimers of absolute knowledge had been gathered into a conference room, for here they would be face to face with all the variant and differing proved beliefs of ultimate truth that were so undoubtable to each of their sponsers. Here there would be none of the ‘neglect’ of contradictions, for while the individual beliefs were very personal and unassailable since they each had thought of them, there would be unavoidable debate.

We knew, too, that they would get angry and so, to accelerate the process, itching powder had been sprayed into the air beforehand.

“There are no gods, just ways of life indicated by the consciousness of the universe.”

“Nope, there is one God.”

“Ha, hardly. There are many Gods, Krishna just being of of the better knowm ones.”

Wham! “Go eat a sacred cow!”

Baam! “There is no Heaven or Hell.”

Whammo! “Have a nice trip there.”

“My all loving God wouldn’t torture anyone in Hell; that’s more like a Devil would do.”

Punch! “Don’t call my God a Devil.”

“No change to what ‘is’ is needed.”

“What! One must greatly reduce or banish the ego altogether! It is Satan.”

“Well, can’t use an ego to banish an ego.”

“The ego will surely be gone after death.”

“But we never die; we are an ongoing dream.”

“OK, nevermind; I love you, Mel”

“Jesus was Divine, Jew head.”

“No way, Islamic monster; You stole that concept.”

“Death to you, infidel. Mohammed is the main man, for an Angle told him everything.”

“God talked to me and said that the Book of Morman is the true faith.”

“Go home to your 12 wives, you nut case—and I hope you run out of Viagra.”

"Your faith is a wrong one; die."

(Can be continued by posters…)

Next times: Some conclusions and some rehash, then a walk through the Graveyard of dead or dying sure things of the past, but, it’s scary, for some are still moving!

[leskey]

Hi, Austin.

Just for emphasis:

Many think that by using imagination alone makes one capabable of discovering truths about the ultimate reality, in this case, the Supernatural, even though our imaginations are the last link in reality’s chain of events.

The mind has a tendency to listen to itself’s wanderings, just as there is a tendency for us to fall for our very own thoughts hook, line, and thinker—straight from their subconscious formation obtained from the nature of our own inclinations.

Long after the first conjecture has passed for truth we then weave many more layers of imagination about it, upon it, and around it until it takes root and grows a realistic looking form and structure that eventually permeates many or our thoughts and actions, bolstered thereby all the more when gone forward further to belief to practice to even more extensions to preaching and telling as a proof of an ultimate truth that all should grasp.

Yet, it was only imagined,
and totally lacking in support from the direct experience of the world.

The suppositions of the Supernatural creating the universe are often quite extravagant, totally inelagant, and more than superfluous.

Next time: Some of the mind’s ‘Supernatural’ pronouncements, some even from the spititual at ToeQuest that are inconsistent with each other, demonstrating the variation of divergence of free imagination—thus indicating its unreliability as a source of the truth of the ultimate.

Why is this true? Because I came up with it and think so.

[melanie]

“There are no gods, just ways of life indicated by the consciousness of the universe.”
“Nope, there is one God.”
“Ha, hardly. There are many Gods, Krishna just being of of the better knowm ones.”
Wham! “Go eat a sacred cow!”
Baam! “There is no Heaven or Hell.”
Whammo! “Have a nice trip there.”
“My all loving God wouldn’t torture anyone in Hell; that’s more like a Devil would do.”
Punch! “Don’t call my God a Devil.”
“No change to what ‘is’ is needed.”
“What! One must greatly reduce or banish the ego altogether! It is Satan.”
“Well, can’t use an ego to banish an ego.”
“The ego will surely be gone after death.”
“But we never die; we are an ongoing dream.”
“OK, nevermind; I love you, Mel”
“Jesus was Divine, Jew head.”
“No way, Islamic monster; You stole that concept.”
“Death to you, infidel. Mohammed is the main man, for an Angle told him everything.”
“God talked to me and said that the Book of Morman is the true faith.”
“Go home to your 12 wives, you nut case—and I hope you run out of Viagra.”
"Your faith is a wrong one; die."

(Can be continued by posters…)

All '' THIS '' ..IS '' happening ''..... NOW .....over and over and over.

spinning, churning, turning, spiraling,

De)sire(ing IS what keeps it all wizzing round and round......to Noone but EYE and EYE ALLone.

Next times: Some conclusions and some rehash, then a walk through the Graveyard of dead or dying sure things of the past, but, it’s scary, for some are still moving!

Eye SEE dead people.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Mel, since we see somewhat eye to 'I', I won't whamo it black.

Leskey, good joke, for you know that people's imaginings go on about the nature of the unknown, and that we can observe straight out their proclamations, and, so, that is not what is made up. What is made up are the contradictory things that imaginations make up.

[Hucknallite]

Quick pithy answers: For reasoning see The Rational God.


1. It is absolutely self-evident that ‘invisibles’ [of God] can be SEEN within us. No changes required; just live it. Case closed. Or not.
Errrm bad one to start on. Can't make sense of that so probably false.

2. One can see that God’s work is imprinted in nature. Or not.
God is nature so yes.

3. Changes are required since one knows that God’s will is: that ego should be banished in order to become closer to Him. Or not.
God has no will and ego is irrelevant in rationality.

4. We believe that life is/isn't a test given by God.
I don't.

5. Non acceptance of God is the only unpardonable sin. Or not.
Failure to use ones God given senses and rationality as an aid to understanding is the main sin.

6. God is/isn't defined as in my faith only.
There can only be one rational god.

7. We say that God can/cannot be known directly.
Of course He can.

8. Hell/Heaven/Angels/Devil types are/aren’t.
Literary devices.

9. A particular prophet, among many, received the right information from God, but not all of the others.
That is just the theists version. Pick on someone your own size.

10. God is absolutely all loving / vengeful at times.
They are human qualities, not God qualities.

11. The spirit seems to reside in the pineal gland.
Only one person has ever thought that.

12. A NDE could be a peeking into Heaven or a seeing of inter-dimensional ET beings.
Its probably just

13. One can be with God during deep meditation. Or not.
Deep reflection would be better. Keep off the drugs and read.

14. We are ‘nothing’ characters of the Perfect Awareness’ dreams, that is, illusionary.
Read the right books.

15. The material/mineral/vegetable was not made by God but was shaped into us and nature by Him. Or not.
They are Him.

16. Change to ‘what is’ is/isn't required in life.
Does this make any sense?

17. Something does/doesn’t happen after death.
I dare say plenty of things will happen after my death but not to me.

18. We do/don’t reincarnate.
The numbers are quite clear. We don't.

19. God did/didn’t guide evolution.
This is the best question so far. Evolution clearly happens... but does it have to is the interesting bit!?!?!?!

20. An OBE could is/isn’t a spiritual experience.
Some you win, one you lose.

21. God is/isn't a Person.
He's a universe or existence itself.

22. God existed forever.
This is an interesting question.

23. God made Himself.
Of course. And He is the only thing capable of doing that.

24. God does/doesn’t intercede in human affairs.
Of course not.

25. God requires / doesn’t require adoration.
A little reverence is sufficient.

25. God is an origin rather than a Creator.
Thats faor enough

26. God is a Creator rather than an origin.
God can only do what it is in His nature to do. He creates because He must.

27. Jesus is/isn't Divine.
I need some evidence for this guy.

28. God is all knowing, has unlimited power, and is everywhere.
Of course. But don't confuse these attributes with those of the Theist God.

29. Only Catholics will make it to the afterlife.
The pub is their preferred destination.

30. One may / may not repent sins and be totally forgiven.
Some care, some don't.

31. The Biblical God is/isn't the true God.
There is a problem of interpretation. Not to mention change for political reasons and translational errors.

32. God sent extra information to the Mormons. Or not.
The American religion. Maybe Mossad were assisting.

33. The Jews are God’s chosen people. Or not.
We are all chosen.

34. God answers prayers. Or not.
Reflection and contemplation never hinder anyone... but you are on your own.

35. God is a Theity not a Deity.
Are you making words up?

36. God is a Deity not a Theity.
Will bein the dictionary soon.

37. There is one God / many Gods.
Only One.

38. God wills Alaska’s projects (Sarah Palin).
God has no will. He can only exist according to His nature.

39. God is the quantum wave function of the universe, being more of a Ground-of-Determination.
Grand Overall Design.

40. God created / did not create Adam and Eve directly, wholly formed.
Not obviously.

41. The bible is literal/symbolic.
Its hard to find any written work which is literal. All writing is full of symbolism.

42. There are /aren’t 72 virgins for a martyr and 72 free seats in Heaven for the friends of the martyr.
They are regenerating virgins if you don't mind.

43. If you do not believe as we do, you are doomed.
Said George Bush to the Ayatollah.

44. Evil spirits do/don’t cause mental and physical ills.
Absinthe ?

45. All of It is illusion/real.
Real

46. An invisible soul is inserted at birth.
Does anyone actually believe this?

47. God resides inside/outside of our universe.
God is the universe.

48. The soul does/doesn’t duplicate and retain a person’s unique nature of associations, memory, and reasoning after and/or before death.
I recommend fitting it all in before death.

49. The spirit in consciousness makes decisions in life, not the mind-brain. Or not.
Too much vagary.

50. God wants thinks that one should/shouldn’t convert others through preaching your faith.
God wants and thinks nothing. He can only do what it is in His nature to do. Remember He is self causing.

51. When you die it is because God called you and nothing to do with the natural workings of nature.
Getting back to that symbolic thing. God exists in the way He does because He has no choice. What happens happens.

52. There is/isn’t a Holy Spirit.
Single Malt.

53. Miracles happen. Or not.
There is one miracle. The fact we are here.

54. The Earth is only 4000 years old. Or not.
80,000 years is about right. See poll on 'how old the earth is' for reasoning.

55. Evolution never happened. Or it did.
The mechanism for evolution is clearly accurate.

56. Allah has an interest in women’s clothing.
Allah only requires modesty. It is the men who like to keep their women in the dark.

57. Certain books should/shouldn’t be excluded from the bible.
Mary and Thomas?

58. All was created in 6 days.
You are being symbolic again.

59. God is/isn't meant as good role model.
God can only do what is in his nature to do. We are the ones who can act through choice.

60. We are surely to blame for the sins of our ancestors. Or not.
The Liberals seem to think so.

61. Our free will must / need not match God’s will.
God has no will.

62. God does/doesn’t work in mysterious ways.
God is rational and there is little that is mysterious except life itself.

63. What the mind can imagine must be true of God.
Imagination is outside of rationality and God is rational.

64. I do/don’t feel God’s presence (Mother Theresa).
Gods existence can only be derived through empirical and rational enquiry.

65. Using the mind to formulate beliefs about what is not known makes it known.
There have no other tool.

66. There is no mystery to solve for the design of God but only for the design of Earth and its creatures.
Some detail required, but it is understood.

67. Humans were made special, above and beyond the other species.
Which animal would you rather be?

68. God’s influence extends to every atom, and what they are made of and what they combine into. Or not.
God has no influence. He exists only as His nature permits.

69. God is the answer; no further analysis needed; case closed; don’t worry about the larger question introduced by this ‘answer’.
God is a symbolic aid to understanding. There is no larger question in the right context.

70. Anger is appropriate toward nonbelievers. Or not.
An increase in the education budget.

71. I do not have to present extraordinary evidence for my extraordinary claims. Why is the onus on me?
Ignore the Theists, that is the strawman argument. Anyone can defeat a theist in discussion.

72. Those opposite wrong believers from us seem weird—and their culture does, too. How could they be so off? Our way will prevail.
Anything but the truth is weird.

73. The Root of All Evil: Let’s tell people what they must believe about our ideology.
Follow your own sensory evidence and your own rational judgement.

74. Evidence is not even conceivable, by definition, so, please have belief and faith, for it is ‘trustworthy’.
Follow your own sensory evidence and your rational judgement.

75. Bahaullah is the phrophet to be believed now; another may not come for 1000 years.
Follow your own sensory evidence and your rational judgement.

76. … our eyes cannot detect any entity smaller that the shortest wavelength of light our visual system can process. Therefore, the atom and all concepts of smaller entities are inventions of the human mind, built according to a logical, rational, and coherent system of thought.
They are guesses, some of which might be true.

77. Amen to all the variances of 'sure things'.
Lost me on this last one.