Is it possible to prove the non-existence of God?

[leskey]

Hi, Austin.

Thanks for the discussion .

How come we humans would be an illusion?

We have to include Humans in "everything"...

"...all that really exists are (unseen) "forces," that result in patterns which in turn can be 'interpreted'..."

As part of existence, this includes us...the sentient part that "interprets"...(interpret: (FIND MEANING) verb [T] to decide what the intended meaning of something is)

Beyond survival, we have long evidenced the extent of our capacities: to find meaning IS our purpose.

The Spiritualists tend to utilize anger, for their 'concept of good' identifies the contrary as 'evil'; some on ToeQuest have come to learn that, ironically, it was the made-up [flawed] concepts of good that caused what turned out to be their own evil of anger when they lashed the whip at the people themselves. All we can do then is remind them of this futility.

I understand what you're saying...all contributions should attract respect, though. We're all different and all only human (not just the "spritualists"). Personal "interpretation" is an extention the "self." It is to make oneself vulnerable. Acknowledgement, rather than ridicuile, is at least some measure towards unity.

TOE Quest should be evolving to allow for participants from all backgrounds and beliefs in as much as we -

. agree to disagree on some points
. work to find common ground as a basis for an eventual TOE and
. acknowledge the power of collaboration

Any TOE, by its very nature should be all-inclusive. It cannot deny the undeniable, the historically overwhelming, innate Human need to acknowledge the unseen (spritual?) forces...that would be to NOT ever have a real TOE. It is this very detail that reveals a divisive agenda.

As for the illusion stuff, life is actually very stable.

Thanks for that reassurance, but I must agree with Uncle Albert, "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

[melanie]

As for the illusion stuff, life is actually very stable.

The atomic elements were formed by stars and supernovae that spewed the stuff into space a long time ago—and it is still around, as it is very durable.

BUT THIS IS STILL ONLY YOU'RE INTERPRETATION AUSTIN. And you say this because you see it with you're eyes.
But the truth is they are not your eyes.
It's not you doing the seeing, seeing is seeing as you through you but it is not you.

The scientific view is of a 'Big Bang' followed by evolution, eventually leading to conscious beings.

The Advaita view is the reverse.

Consciousness/Awareness is primary.

It is not dependent on anything, but expresses AS everything.

In other words, the world, the universe, yes absolutely everything, appears in IT.

Science sees dead matter evolving into intelligent life,
while to Advaita there is only IT appearing AS this whole manifestation.

So if all there is is this, it must have always been this, with no beginning or end?

When we perceive a universe with time and space, we also perceive cause and effect.
When there is cause and effect there must be a first cause.
This first cause must by itself be uncaused, otherwise it would not be the first cause.
It therefore has no beginning.
If it has no beginning it has no end and qualifications such as before and after, or front and back cannot apply to it.
Without these criteria it is outside of or prior to the dimensions of space and time.

However, science and the theory of evolution has some pretty convincing evidence, like the fossils.

According to Advaita, space and time are in the Dreamer/Awareness.
Concepts like 'beginning/end' are of the space/time dimensions and do not apply to the Timeless One.
Reality is viewed as a cyclic phenomena of manifestation/dissolution.

Another way of seeing this, is that this whole manifestation vibrates into Being right here, right now, complete with buried dinosaurs,
crumbling ruins of old civilizations, dying stars, and other 'evidence' of the past.

Just like it does in a dream.

In our dreams we may encounter age-old mountains, oceans, stars, and planets.
There may be people and animals, cities and forests.
We may experience days or even years passing by.



Buddhist poem

Plop, there it is!
Nothing else than that, which is empty of matter, fills all corners of the universe!
Mountains, rivers, the entire world, you and all, they manifest the body of the 0ne.



The above explanation is ''my'' interpretation.
I believe ''my'' interpretation to be true for me.

It doesn't matter that we all have differing interpretations of reality,
because it is the same one love self in action dreaming differences where in reality there are none.

And no matter what ''you'' say or ''I'' say or ''he'' says or ''she'' says it will never make the slightest bit of difference to what is self evidently and plainly
.. just TH-IS right NOW

We can go round and round discussing our reality until the cows come home, but all that we will ever accomplish is absolutely nothing.

~

[analog]

Hey Leskey,

Thanks for that reassurance, but I must agree with Uncle Albert, "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

I'm more of the opinion that 'reality' isn't an illusion at all, only certain relative perceptions of it are, due to the mechanics of the brain; but they too must also be based in a fundamental physically interacting foundation. Even our illusions are given purpose and existence by something; are they not? The truths they proclaim may be questionable, but their existence is definite.

The trick is to take everything that we know, and find its purpose, meaning, and definition in a world which obviously knows nothing but physical interaction at all scales, distances and resolutions. Albert was obviously unable to do such, and was thus also subject to a certain degree of confusion; despite his deep insight into certain aspects of the mechanics of our physical interacting world.

later,

Tim

[melanie]

Albert was obviously unable to do such,

and was thus also subject to a certain degree of confusion;

“Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not yet understood”


despite his deep insight

“A degree is not an education, and the confusion on this point is perhaps the gravest weakness in American thinking about education”


Only the ''Confused'' are confused.

There is nothing to understand......take a leaf out of a tree.

The mind is trying to understand the mind... with the mind.... Impossible to do for one very good reason.
Can a thought know another thought?
~

[melanie]

The Spiritualists tend to utilize anger, for their 'concept of good' identifies the contrary as 'evil'; some on ToeQuest have come to learn that, ironically, it was the made-up [flawed] concepts of good that caused what turned out to be their own evil of anger when they lashed the whip at the people themselves.

"I'm learning to influence myself by practicing on you"

All we can do then is remind them of this futility.

Don't listen to me. Who the heck Am I ?

~

[melanie]

The mind is trying to understand the mind... with the mind....

Impossible to do for one very good reason.

Can a thought know another thought?

Know with assurance that you are not a limited person bound up in thought.

You are the presence-awareness in which the whole universe is appearing.

This kind of ''looking'' will pull the drain plug out of the sink of the mind,and all problems will be sucked into the void of non-existence.

As they say, a cave may have been dark for thousands of years, but when you bring a torch into the cave, the light instantly obliterates that darkness.

~

[Mikal]

Are there really "unseen forces" intangible yet tangible to that part of us capable of having a "felt experience"???

I have had a lifetime of entanglements with these forces. They are not seen with our eyes, they are perceived and felt according to the freqencies of our own level of sentient receptivity.

When in the presence of these forces, I was not always alone...those witnessing their unseen presence can fully realize they have the power to interfere with anything electrical, they can reverse clocks, fill rooms with soft fragrances, they can move our physical body backwards or to the side or whatever.

Whatever these unseen forces are they would have to be a highly magnetised field to interfere and join with our energy fields. I believe one has to be in their own heart torus to experience unseen forces.....



Mikal

[analog]

“A degree is not an education, and the confusion on this point is perhaps the gravest weakness in American thinking about education”


Only the ''Confused'' are confused.

There is nothing to understand......take a leaf out of a tree.

The mind is trying to understand the mind... with the mind.... Impossible to do for one very good reason.
Can a thought know another thought?
~

I wasn't referring to an educational degree. "Degree of confusion", as I used it, simply means a measurable amount of confusion, which Albert (and apparently some others) had in relation to his views of reality and a ToE. Perhaps you shouldn't slip your remarks into the quote box with my name above it also; I wouldn't want others to glance through and think that I was making your statements.

Metaphysics is also founded within a purely physical reality, even though many modern interpretations of Einstein's Relativity and Quantum Physics place a high degree of importance upon the observer and their ability to know such things as instantaneity, position, momentum, etc., which often misleads many curious minds into believing otherwise. Just because we may only ever experience a seemingly uncertain world of apparent fantasy, magic and mystery at our resolution of structure, where particles pop in and out of existence as we peer within to quantum resolutions, our abilities to predict outcomes become increasingly probabilistic thus less determinate, dimensions vary with acceleration, events take place at relative instances to each other, etc., doesn't imply a world founded upon pure thought and mind; but rather defines the limitations of those thinking minds interacting within it. Just because we can't witness, measure and experience our world at the most micro scales doesn't mean that it isn't just as real, determinate and interactive as the physics of two cars colliding upon a busy street; thus the leverage of many meta-physicist is reversed, due to all of this taking place without any need of our thoughts or minds interacting at these distances, scales and resolutions. We are made up of these scales and are subject to their motions; not the other way around as many would have us believe.

As I've stated before, IMHO, it is our inability to accept reality thus defining our limited position within it, that will restrict our minds from understanding a ToE.

regards,

Tim

[Mikal]

Hi Analog...I don't think Mel slipped her name into the quote box belonging to you but coming up as her. This happened to me the other day in another thread where Michael replied to me but the quote from someone else came up bearing my name....maybe that should be reported to Robert...some quirk in the system maybe....



Mikal

[melanie]

I wasn't referring to an educational degree. "Degree of confusion", as I used it, simply means a measurable amount of confusion, which Albert (and apparently some others) had in relation to his views of reality and a ToE. Perhaps you shouldn't slip your remarks into the quote box with my name above it also; I wouldn't want others to glance through and think that I was making your statements.

Metaphysics is also founded within a purely physical reality, even though many modern interpretations of Einstein's Relativity and Quantum Physics place a high degree of importance upon the observer and their ability to know such things as instantaneity, position, momentum, etc., which often misleads many curious minds into believing otherwise. Just because we may only ever experience a seemingly uncertain world of apparent fantasy, magic and mystery at our resolution of structure, where particles pop in and out of existence as we peer within to quantum resolutions, our abilities to predict outcomes become increasingly probabilistic thus less determinate, dimensions vary with acceleration, events take place at relative instances to each other, etc., doesn't imply a world founded upon pure thought and mind; but rather defines the limitations of those thinking minds interacting within it. Just because we can't witness, measure and experience our world at the most micro scales doesn't mean that it isn't just as real, determinate and interactive as the physics of two cars colliding upon a busy street; thus the leverage of many meta-physicist is reversed, due to all of this taking place without any need of our thoughts or minds interacting at these distances, scales and resolutions. We are made up of these scales and are subject to their motions; not the other way around as many would have us believe.

As I've stated before, IMHO, it is our inability to accept reality thus defining our limited position within it, that will restrict our minds from understanding a ToE.

regards,

Tim

As usual i have no idea or understanding of what you are talking about, as you probably have no idea or understanding of what i am talking about.

No worries.

I threw in some ''confusion'' because that's what words/concepts/ideas ..do.

They BLOCK the view.
And i proved it.

~