Is it possible to prove the non-existence of God?

[Mohan.C]

Every being on earth may know something that the other doesn't. So, the knowledge of all the beings collectively is Infinite, God is Infinite, So, we all are together Infinite, or god or something like 'able' pieces of 'super abilities'.....

[austintorn@aol.com]

…Not all can be known, as the nature of the origin [not necessarily creation] of the universe is unknown, as well as the origin being long gone…

Human mammals, not necessarily special, have been around for only a few hundred thousand years as homo sapiens.

If, though, they do know everything, perhaps they have put it all on the internet… now, which stuff was really known and which was made up?

[Wick]

Every being on earth may know something that the other doesn't. So, the knowledge of all the beings collectively is Infinite, God is Infinite, So, we all are together Infinite, or god or something like 'able' pieces of 'super abilities'.....

Our definitions of God may be overly infinite.

Universal Law is greater than God. God did not create the Law. The Law created God.

When one obeys Universal Law, one becomes free within the Law’s framework. When one disobeys, one must bear the natural consequences of disobedience. Universal Law is all Natural Law. We erroneously subdivide Universal Law into natural law and moral law. But in the end, they are the same.

As long as God complies with Universal Law, he remains God, but if God breaks Universal Law, God ceases to be God and becomes something else. Perfect compliance to Law is the path to Godhood.

When a being achieves perfect obedience to Universal Law, he become infinitely powerful, he becomes creative, he becomes all knowing, and even all powerful…BUT ONLY WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE UNIVERSAL LAW. The Law is always prime. Compliance with the universal law is the source of God’s power. To bow before universal law, to humble oneself before it, to give oneself to it, that is where God’s power lies. God is the ultimate disciple of Universal Law.

My point is this…the pathway to Godhood is an evolutionary process. Those who make it (and I’ll use the plural because I believe God is plural and encompasses both genders), make it only after they learn how to comply perfectly with universal law. When they, too become disciples of Universal Law

So let’s jettison the idea that a God is one who does what he pleases, or sees what he pleases, or hears what he pleases or thinks what he pleases. That is not true. God does what the law requires God to do, sees what the law requires God to see, hears what the law requires God to hear, thinks what the law requires God to think.

Freedom is not that thing that arises when any law can be broken. That is a lie.

Perfect freedom is achieved when the Law is obeyed perfectly. Take a simple metaphor—a dancer on the stage. There are certain laws that governs a dancer’s performance—the law of the dance. As she obeys those laws and learns to express herself within the framework of the law the dance requires, she becomes beautiful and fascinating to those who watch her. We learn to feel her expressions. We are amazed at her grace, her discipline, the power of her expression within the framework of her natural constraints. She becomes perfectly free in her expression, because she has mastered the law of the dance.

Were a non-dancer to take her place on the stage, we would leave the theater laughing. The untrained novice would break the laws of the dance, would look clumsy and graceless. The amateur hasn’t the freedom to dance with expression because he has not learned nor sacrificed himself to the laws that would give him grace and expression.

God is like that. Through perfect grace and discipline, God expresses himself perfectly within the framework of Universal Law.

The question one might ask is What does Universal Law require a God to do? I think the answer is that the Universal Law requires a God to nurture other beings into Godhood, to help others learn how to discipline themselves and learn how to perfectly express themselves with regard to Universal Law. But we are not there yet in this universe.

The universe we currently occupy is a schoolhouse that helps us to understand aspects of Universal Law in ways that we heretofore have not been able to experience. If there is violence here, if there is pain, if there is suffering,…and if there is peace here, if there is bliss, if there is comfort…it is because we need opposition in all things in the universe we currently occupy in order to achieve the discipline that leads to Godhood. We live in these imperfect conditions, in order to finally understand that by some eternal paradox, it is only through perfect obedience to the Law that perfect freedom is achieved.

And the lesson doesn’t end when we die. Death is not a graduation…it’s a commencement. Godhood is still down the road a bit.

Please let’s stop looking for the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent fable we have conjured up in our minds. Such a God is no God at all. God’s power hangs upon Universal Law. This fact is God’s ultimate limitation, but also the very source of his limitless power. God can be infinite and eternal and still not be the container of all things.

[Mikal]

Your metaphor about the dancer is exceptional...alot of those ideas were exactly what I was trying to impart in the Light thread about "the felt experience" ...I would be referring here to the difference between communication and the transference of information versus expression and the transference of one's inner emotional reality....


Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Wick,

Such a God is no God at all. God’s power hangs upon Universal Law.

As this may have been the God referred to in this thread, you have indeed proved His non existence as such, and so I commend you.

The key is that any system of mind must ever be dependent on universal laws and even lower "parts" as less composite and more fundamental, and so could not be absolute and fundamental in Himself as a system, person, or being.

Universal laws, not being persons, can be origins of the real…

[Wick]

Wick,

Such a God is no God at all. God’s power hangs upon Universal Law.

As this may have been the God referred to in this thread, you have indeed proved His non existence as such, and so I commend you.

The key is that any system of mind must ever be dependent on universal laws and even lower "parts" as less composite and more fundamental, and so could not be absolute and fundamental in Himself as a system, person, or being.

Universal laws, not being persons, can be origins of the real…

Naturally I disagree with you, Austin. The God you have in mind when you speak of God is not God. Its a concept of your own making.

God's subjection to Law is not proof of God's nonexistence, but rather of God's existence. Subjection to and compliance with Law does not detract at all from God's power and glory. On the contrary, such perfect obedience is the very source of what makes God God. Thank God for that!!

[austintorn@aol.com]

this may have been the God referred to in this thread

Wick, I don't speak for God, for that would be vanity, nor have I any God to speak for anyway, but I agree with your elimination of the O-O-O God as commonly thought of…

Is God a middleman produced from universal law who then created the universe as He had to. Was He person-like? Or what?

[Wick]

this may have been the God referred to in this thread

Wick, I don't speak for God, for that would be vanity, nor have I any God to speak for anyway, but I agree with your elimination of the O-O-O God as commonly thought of…

Is God a middleman produced from universal law who then created the universe as He had to. Was He person-like? Or what?

I'd be a fool to claim any knowledge in that regard. What I believe is this: The Law is absolute and unchanging. God is subject to Universal Law. God is also perfectly disciplined and understands and obeys the Law perfectly. This makes God perfectly Free in that the Law has no power to bind or fetter God. As such, the Law becomes God's tool.

If God is omnipotent, or omniscent, or omnipresent, it would only be possible within the confines of the Law--which implies Legal limits...I don't know what this does to the "omni". I guess the way I would put it (and this is slippery I know) is that God is as powerful as the Law permits, as aware as the Law permits, and as present as the Law permits. I think that the degree of God's power, awareness and presence is sufficiently great that creatures like you or I, were we to meet God, would probably use words like 'omni-' or 'all-' as descriptors.

I also believe (and I'll admit that this is a purely philosophical position) that one of those Universal Laws that limits God's actions is that God may not interfer with any creature's agency. This is a kind of prime directive. God may impose consequences for wrong actions, indeed God is compelled to impose such consequences within the framework of the Law, but he may not interfer beyond that.

Point is this: God is subject to Law.

[Wick]

Is God a middleman produced from universal law who then created the universe as He had to. Was He person-like? Or what?

Austin, Sorry about the misunderstanding regarding the God you were referring to. I understand now that you were referring to the God described at the beginning of the thread.

As for your question above, I think you understand my position that the observable universe is by no means all there is. I believe there is a resting background of 4D light through which all universes exist and move. I believe that Gods work from this 4D place, and in accordance with Universal Law, prepare universes in which their children, people like you and I, can come to learn the implications of Universal Law in a very intimate way. I think there is a good deal of creative license in the way the universe is created. Law does not prescribe one way things can be done. It establishes instead a framework according to which order can be maintained. Furthermore, God is not merely a he, God is a they, a he and a she (at the very least). And I think they are person-like in ways that would be hard for either you or I to understand (so I won't even try).

I freely admit, Austin, that these are only my beliefs/musings. I understand that you are very skeptical about thoughts such as these, so I'm sharing these ideas not as dogma or truth, only as ideas for consideration.

[Profpat]

In Ancient Egypt Pharaoh was the LAW!!

Is God any less.