Is it possible to prove the non-existence of God?

[analog]

Hey Prof,

I would say that rather than a God needing someone to talk to him, those who choose to do so need to feel as though they are talking to a God.

Example: The hypothetical sinner falls upon their knees asking for forgiveness and strength to overcome adversity in their lives such as a personal desire to commit a certain "sin". Through much prayer and "faith" they find such strength whereby changing themselves to become what they percieve as a better person. They give praise to the God of their choosing, which furthers that faith and devotion.

Here's my view of this scenario: That person obviously had a desire to change, which is why they were praying to start with, and if such changes take place then they obviously had it within themselves to change. It wasn't devine intervention, but rather an evolving intellect. If only they would have identified their desire to pray as such, they could have saved themselves a lot of time and trouble, due to having realized that they were fully capable of achieving their desires on their own.

Certain spiritual concepts displace personal strengths by creating a dependence upon a higher being. I'm of the opinion that we have it within ourselves to become who we want to be, whereby as our intelligence increases, we begin to identify the subjects of our prayers (in instances of character development) as being less of a plea for external help, and more of an internal personal guide to better understanding ourselves, whereby we can skip the prayer, and just become the better person; thus if we then fail, it's no one's fault but our own, and we aren't found making excuses for a God that failed us. Perhaps, we should start taking more responsibility not only for our actions, but also for the lack thereof.

Just my opinion.

regards,

Tim

[Profpat]

You're right Tim I have no right speaking for God.

[austintorn@aol.com]

I like Mohan's description of conscience of "learning from our surroundings", for then we learn to anticipate what is wrong or bad and how it would feel to do it, which is not a good feeling since the anxiety of guilt arises.

Unfortunately, some do not have the anxiety of guilt. Some studies show that a low standing heart rate combined with low serotonin (leading to primitive behavior) lets someone more easily commit a crime of violence with no anxiety.

[austintorn@aol.com]

There are tremendous problems with the notion of God, one being that all the aspects are invisible, compounded by second that what we see of the universe diametrically opposes the invisible notion anyway.

Human nature is seen to be made by evolution and natural selection—and so there is then no divine constitution and all hat goes with that, for example, evolution did not make a soul and so then there is no spirit to travel on to an afterlife.

Yet, human nature wants to know the origin of the universe—and that is why we have ToeQuest, and so some human mammals wish to know in a desperate way, but they can’t, but this does not compute, but they really want to know, so, they must make things up, even going to great lengths to circumvent facts.

One such attempt was to deny evolution, for, otherwise, God had no role in shaping us and might as well not even exist. These people did not study or learn evolution so much as they looked for problems with it, “neglecting” the absorb the truth of it all.

However, evolution was not to be denied and so they grasped on to the idea that God somehow guided evolution along; however, this did not suffice at all since evolution bears all the opposite hallmarks.

Some then even went so far as to say that God made the world with the fossil records already buried in it because… what? To fool us?

No matter, for they continued to ignore the entire concept of evolution for the most part, although some still suggested that God began everything and just let it go wherever it would go. This is what a Deity is (rather than a Theity).

The last retreat, similar to the first, is to hold onto the darkness of the invisible, for there is nothing to be seen here; whereas, the contrary lived in the light of what could be seen and known.

Another attempt to circumvent the undeniable was to suppose that God placed a soul into Homo Sapiens at some point, this soul even duplicating all the functions of the brain such as mind, memory, and consciousness. And, yes, it was all invisible.

For what reason do some human mammals even think out of heir own pride that they are so special and above all as to be divinely created and also obtain a great reward in Heaven?

Did our universe form, perhaps one of many universes, so that, out of many galaxies, our own galaxy could generate, on one of its million stars, some mammals near one of the stars, on a planet, over 13.75 billions years, to become, for one shining short moment in the parenthesis of eternity?

We are bio-electro-chemical “machines” as organic as anything else in nature.

Our own most humble Master Graybeard put out a wonderful chart showing the stages of near-man, proto-man, early man, and the more “recent” stages. Not sure how anyone could ignore that…

And, thanks, too, to our most gracious Master Analog for such clarity in his most humbling exposition of human action.

So, let us offer up a Thanksgiving prayer of gratitude to the luck of the universe:

Oh thee, of thine, whence came this life of mine?
I wish thee to thank for this living wine.
Oh Nature, Father Time, Guiding Star—
Thanks for throwing me an earthly lifeline.

Luckily, I live at peak atop life’s pile
Of miraculous lives through eons of wiles.
I’m alive, thanks to all who have come before—
How could I live by any style but to smile?

Pretend that you’re dead and gone, siting on a star,
Regretting there the emptiness of life’s memoir,
Thinking, If only I could live it all again!
Fancy yourself not here, then smile because you are!

Say Farewell! Heaven’s promise is bereft.
Still, live with gratitude—be not distressed;
Yet, dismiss immortality’s dream;
Accept, with appetite, whatever’s left.

I’ve said Good-bye to the dream of forever;
I’m too philosophical to be bitter.
Poignantly resigned, I accept, with hunger
And joy, all that’s left—whatever—with pleasure.

'Twas a time before birth when you were not;
'Twill be a time again when you are not.
From Death your life was a borrowed debit;
Spend it, love it, and live it to your credit.

[Mikal]

[/SIZE]

Hey Prof,

I would say that rather than a God needing someone to talk to him, those who choose to do so need to feel as though they are talking to a God.

Example: The hypothetical sinner falls upon their knees asking for forgiveness and strength to overcome adversity in their lives such as a personal desire to commit a certain "sin". Through much prayer and "faith" they find such strength whereby changing themselves to become what they percieve as a better person. They give praise to the God of their choosing, which furthers that faith and devotion.

Here's my view of this scenario: That person obviously had a desire to change, which is why they were praying to start with, and if such changes take place then they obviously had it within themselves to change. It wasn't devine intervention, but rather an evolving intellect. If only they would have identified their desire to pray as such, they could have saved themselves a lot of time and trouble, due to having realized that they were fully capable of achieving their desires on their own.

Certain spiritual concepts displace personal strengths by creating a dependence upon a higher being. I'm of the opinion that we have it within ourselves to become who we want to be, whereby as our intelligence increases, we begin to identify the subjects of our prayers (in instances of character development) as being less of a plea for external help, and more of an internal personal guide to better understanding ourselves, whereby we can skip the prayer, and just become the better person; thus if we then fail, it's no one's fault but our own, and we aren't found making excuses for a God that failed us. Perhaps, we should start taking more responsibility not only for our actions, but also for the lack thereof.

Just my opinion.

regards,

Tim

Hi Analog...hope you do not mind me commenting but I have never thought that God needed me to converse nor have I ever felt like I needed to talk with God...I just had a complicated life and got in the mode of private walks and talks.

I have never believed in sin or the concepts of heaven or hell..because I never had a sense that a God would create his creations and then destroy them. I also never felt that a God would need our devotion but would moreso like us to devote ourselves to our life which I consider a precious gift.

I can appreciate the thought of an evolving intellect but also know from personal experience that what is called divine intervention is entanglement with the metaphysical.

A desire to change is questionable seeing that the whole of life is about change like going from immaturity to maturity, like going through numerous stages from infancy on and so on....so its probably more about a desire to know how to change postively and with sheer determination and committment...

Also big difference between praying and talking. I agree that religion creates in people a dependence on God and so displaces a person from reaching personal strengths or the right to live as a free thinker. However, spiritual concepts have never acted as barriers for me...they have always coaxed me to search, ponder, muse and enquire. I don't believe in a God that failed us...I believe in a God that created the non-physical part of us....



Mikal

[Mikal]

Austin I guess you have not experienced your soul...hope someday you do, its a wonderful, life altering experience....


Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

What is a soul?

Also, MIkal, sounds to me as you chose your beliefs from what you thought they should be…

Many others did this, too, and came up with differing stuff, so, ned I say…

[Mikal]

I already told you Austin our soul is our psyche or sense of inner self...
Don't assume to quick...my beliefs are formed from inner experiential knowledge...that would be my guiding truths....


Mikal

[Profpat]

What is a soul?

Also, MIkal, sounds to me as you chose your beliefs from what you thought they should be…

Many others did this, too, and came up with differing stuff, so, ned I say…

" To be whole to your soul is ecstasy"

[Mikal]

Quite true Prof and according to the Hindu myth...each person has one drop of ecstasy hidden in their brain....I guess thats all it takes is one drop....


Mikal