[jim barlow]

There is a vacuum in quantum physics which also can be viewed as pure undifferentiated potential. Another name for it is nothing, but not in the sense of absence but a form beyond form from which by LIMITATION forms can pop out.
Add to this man's unremitting capacity to create deity structures in his head. I personally know people who made this structure out of money, "respectability" (a good one), a boss, a woman (not grandma but a younger version), a football player etc etc.
Why they have to build this kind of grandiose structure is beyond me. Can't they appreciate these creatures for what they are?
As to that quantum potential - that's OK too.
But you will not find me egging on "true believers" to murder the enemies of the "true faith". That is what I'm talking about. Middle East, Auschwitz, Ottomans and numberless mad apes whose murdering battle cry is "God God". You may not have reached that point yet but have started in that direction with the invention of the "one true god". There ain't no such thing, believe me.
To believe is a psychological function that shouldn't be overloaded.
I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. I believe my wife won't kill me when I'm asleep. I believe in a minimum of necessary things. That's what belief is for. The remarkable thing is that there is something. There are characters and there are intentions and there are individuals. There may even be very powerful creatures in the cosmos who would look like "gods" to us.Just like we would in a Greek fishing village 5000 years ago with helicopter and tv equipment. Imagine 1 billion years of uninterrupted technical evolution. There are your "gods".

[Guille]

Yes, true, if there is a big difference, so big that the number is seen as infinity, then it would be called god. But it wouldn't be what really the concept of god is. I've described it through many many posts in this thread. It isn't that god looks like infinity...He is infinity.

[mkirkpatrick]

When I look out one the world,and see much suffering and hardship I have wondered about an overall God,but the more I look and the more I try to
understand,the more i look within,I can see that there is a mighty power at work
that there is law within tis universe,there is intelligence, is a purpose
although we do not fully understand it.For me life is eternal and re-birth is a
natural working of intelligent law,and that balances are struck,as you sow so shall you reap,is very apt for me to remember when I see injustices done,all who
do these things will have to pay the Piper his dues,to the last cent.


kind regards michael.

[SinJin]

I think god is the theory of everything. Pretty much up to this point in history, and even currently, we don't have a description of what exactly the theory of everything is, other than the fact that it is responsible for the existence of the universe, and so we have personified it as some sort of conscious force (i.e. an infinitely powerful man up in heaven) to explain it in terms we can at least somewhat grasp (or imagine.) I don't think god is a conscious force and has a will. I think god is the theory of everything, a force that follows a distinct rule, an equation that governs everything. However, I think the ultimate theory of everything is unattainable to humans. To explain, let's say we do someday discover the one theory or force that's responsible for the existence of the universe. We can still ask, "well what's responsible for that one theory? And why is it that theory and not some other theory?" It's similar to the question "So who made God?" Because of this, because there will always be another level that we can question, I think the answer to the theory of everything/god is something akin to a singularity, an infinity we can never get to the heart of. In fact I'll go one step further (and I know this is more science-fiction), but I think our existence is a tiny portion of this singularity that crystalized into ever more complex structures until it could begin to "see" and analyze it's surroundings, which within it's range of comprehension would appear finite. When we try to combine quantum physics and relativity, we get infinity and think it's garbage. But maybe that's actually the answer, and we're seeing the true theory of everything, what lies outside the crystalized structure, and can't comprehend it.

[Guille]

Mkirkpatrik,

I think the main problem with the christin, jewish and muslim god is that it is said and stated to be ethical. He says the words which impply what you must and must not do. This is a problem. because ethics not only is relative, but human. It exists in human mind. Not even in human behaviour: because although the humans may act ethical/un-ethical for themselves and for others, the act itself doesn't have a property called "ethicallity", and a number of a scale. Do you agree?

[Guille]

Sinjin,

I sort of agree in my opinion from you, but from a different derivation and point of view. For me, the TOE is something created by humans for humans to humans, that is, not only it is something that we've invented, but it's something wthat we will understand only. I tihnk equally for god: it is something that was done by humans for humans to humans, god. Thus, they are the same. But I also agree that if god is supposed to know everything, then knwoing everything i.e. the TOE, is equal to god (in the omni-knowledgeable point of view).

[SinJin]

Originally Posted by <<>>

But I also agree that if god is supposed to know everything, then knwoing everything i.e. the TOE, is equal to god (in the omni-knowledgeable point of view).

It sounds like what you are saying is that if the TOE and god are the same thing, just described in different terms, then knowing the TOE would be the same as having the power of god. I think this is interesting, because it makes it sound like knowing the TOE is the end of line then, reaching the ultimate state. It makes a sort of cycle, where you have god or the TOE "creating" and "maintaining" the universe, pushing it to coalesce into matter and intelligence, so that it can eventually find the TOE and return (to god).

[Guille]

Originally Posted by SinJin

It sounds like what you are saying is that if the TOE and god are the same thing, just described in different terms, then knowing the TOE would be the same as having the power of god. I think this is interesting, because it makes it sound like knowing the TOE is the end of line then, reaching the ultimate state. It makes a sort of cycle, where you have god or the TOE "creating" and "maintaining" the universe, pushing it to coalesce into matter and intelligence, so that it can eventually find the TOE and return (to god).

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Science, technologies and techniques exist for one unique reason: giving us knowledge. This kind of knwoledge, which is the best of what humans have (not can have, check last paragraph), we call scientific knowledge. The scientific knowledge is divided in three parts: 1. prime, understand, 2. secondary, explain, 3.terthiary, control. First, we understand things, then we explain them, and finally we control them. By control here I mean predict, for predicting something is being able automatically to contol it. And god controls everything because he knows everything thus he predicts everything -- although for me god doesn't exist, it's another name for nature.

Now, knwoing absolutelly everything is impossible for humans, or for any mortal beings. We can know the basis by which everything fundamental works. but I remind you that everything fundamental is just a 0.000001% of all of what there is.

About the TOE being the end of a line, yes! I got this idea from subversion. At the start, beings that are alive are nothing. When they become consciouss (in the sense of bein able to know, memorize, understand...only humans up to now) then they become somethings, things. And when they manage to knwo everything, i.e. to achieve the TEO, they become everythings. We are in a point at the ver end of the domain of "somethingsd" and will soon, I hope, become "everything". This is the true meaning of all evolution.

Now, scientific knwoledge is not neccesarilly the ultimate knowledge that humans have. Why should it? Science ahs proven not to be absolutelly certain ever, not to be able to understand fundamental things of nature, of existence, of life. Mysticism was believed before greeks that woudl explain everything one day, that if a few more myths were "discovered" they would ahve the secrets for all nature. But then came Thales, the greate Thales, and said "what? Myths, hahahahaha, don't make me lough! It's all logic" and the went into philosophy. Then, the foutl of stupid romans, came religion, which is behin philosophy in terms of advancement, and it was there for a long time also. Then, with renaissance, came science. Also the revival of philsoohpy, which was needed, and is needed, for science to ahve any meaning. So I do really think that we willl develop another kind o fknowledge, which is not either myths (leyend invention), religion (+devine explenation), philosophy (+rational deduction), science (+experiment verification). Maybe it's much better tha all these together. And I tihnk this new kind of thought will be the true way for the TOE.

[mkirkpatrick]

For me the now famous injunction,made by the Oracle at Delpi,of "Man know thyself"is the bedrock of ethics and of mans treatment of man,unless we know
ourselves and are prepared to look within,then we are doomed by our own
ignorance,and arrogant dis-concern for our neighbours.God has vouchsafed this
abilty within us all,whether we follow a faith or not,even an athiest like yourself
amigo,can look within and find yourself,and in doing should find no ethical or logical reason not to,after all does it not make sense to find out who we are,and what we are,we do live in this body all our lives,why not then know ourselves.

kind regards michael.

[pastor Jeff Otterman]

God does not exist and God does not not exist. God stands outside existence and is involved in our very lives to the very breath we take. The God I say I believe in isn't really the God I believe in. I believe in the God behind the God which our culture pushes. For those who don't believe in God, tell me about the God you don't believe in and you may be shocked to know I don't believe in that God either. But I do believe in God.
Peace,
PJ