Evolution and intelligent design

[labelwench]

You don't have to lie about science, now do you Mikal, to make your points...? You better convert a little of your right side nonsense to left side wisdom...

Why would one suggest that the right side is nonsense while the left side is wisdom? Please provide documented evidence.

Rather than denigrate the perspective of another, perhaps the representative of science could just objectively state their case?

[austintorn@aol.com]

All are free to make any meaning or purpose out of life, for we are free.

If we can't know the Toe, then we are free.

If we know the Toe, then we are free.

If we know of free will, then we are free.

If one had a belief system that contains restrictions, then one is still free [although] within those restrictions.

In some countries, one may not be free to express and so is not free so much.

Anything said on ToeQuest is not really binding upon anyone.

If someone in the real world preaches a theory as fact without saying that it just a theory then that is not ethical, but it isn't a crime.

[Mikal]

Well good morning Lloyd. Interesting post! Would you be suggesting that anyone who does not come from a scientific bent of mind and who does not raise reason or logic to the altar, is a liar?

Would you be into the accuser/accused game with your value statement about a lie? Sorry I live from a state of dialectical consciousness where both the subjective and objective are important to work together in synthesis. I also am not into collecting value statements that imprint my personal nature and do incredible emotional harm.

So therefore have a lovely day and when you have attained a psychological understanding of yourself, do get back to me but preferably without your projection of value statements if you please, for I am simply not willing to go into introjections with your accusations….

Regards Mikal

[Meem]

All are free to make any meaning or purpose out of life, for we are free.

If we can't know the Toe, then we are free.

If we know the Toe, then we are free.

If we know of free will, then we are free.

If one had a belief system that contains restrictions, then one is still free [although] within those restrictions.

In some countries, one may not be free to express and so is not free so much.

Anything said on ToeQuest is not really binding upon anyone.

*If someone in the real world preaches a theory as fact without saying that it just a theory then that is not ethical, but it isn't a crime.

If I believe myself to be free
why is it I strap chains of argument
think just like me

If some one says I believe in God
and leaves the details up to heaven
why is it I cry nevermore as the raven?

If one has a belief system that is restricted to time and space, how will they ever understand the infinite state?

Guns don't kill people any more than knives, sticks, or stones. It's the people which handle them, the stuff is neutral. Words don't kill people either, but some ideas do.
The final solution, kill them all, and let science sort them out.

I think God is
I think the universe is
I think science is

limited by his, her, your, my, them, their, our understanding? I get that impression quite often.

* How many commandments would be unethical, but not criminal? I would need a real world example of something not being ethical, but not "criminal" (with no open ends) to better understand. "All that is gold does not glitter."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule_(ethics)

[austintorn@aol.com]

If one has a belief system that is restricted to time and space, how will they ever understand the infinite state?

How about an eternal ground-state/capability, seeing that nothing could have become of Nothing? Thus, no creation of the ultimate ground-state (and thus no Creator), but, like the quantum realm, it could produce secondary things, such the as plus and minus conserved energies that sum back to 'zero' (but for the simple and tiny residue of the ground-state/capability/fluctuation/tunneling, etc.

The universe could have been such a quantum event, the quantum jitterbugs now writ large as the galaxies.

It is also that a system of Mind such as a god could not be fundamental in that the parts would be more so and that composite complexity falls at the complete other end of the spectrum, where we are.

The infinite, meaning a sequence that can never be reached or that which can never be since it can't be gotten to, should always mean that, so we probably use too much shorthand in reducing the 'infinite' into some noun object that we put into sentences. Best to replace it always with 'that which can never be' and see if it still makes sense in the way that it's used.

Probably the 'infinite' has come to mean 'God' by some, another undefined symbol that we have to admit is pure imagination.

There's nothing really strange about the natural of nature being natural, but an invisible Guy sitting around all fully formed and there even before all reality seems a bit strange.

[Meem]

The eternal, everlasting state (since infinite is too offensive?)? The one, that always is, was, and will be ... there at the begining and end. Which happened to give rise to; formed, allowed, birthed, (since created is too offensive?) this state.

We could call it the ground state, from which .... all things just came into existence without any handymen making the next step, or next step. That is a bit strange to me. I imagine that the cup of water in my hand is the only thing in existence, and I shall call it the ground state. Well, we already know this is a bad thought experiment because, obviously it's not the only thing because I am observing it. The good thing is we can correct the problem by assuming it to be true, and then we could ask, how long would I have to observe the glass of water to see it turn into the universe? It should just happen randomly, because we see things randomly happen everywhere.

There would be no cause nor effect, it would just happen.

Not strange at all. I have to admit, it does sound like pure wild imagination.

[Mohan.C]

how long would I have to observe the glass of water to see it turn into the universe?

That's a good point.
Religion can't wait and see so it says there's some other force(which is improbable because, the glass of water is the only thing present) that acts upon it and so sets off the process of cause and effect. This some other force may be or could be called 'god'
Science doesn't yet know what was the cause, and since it always tries to answer with probable causes. It doesn't assume the presence of an external supernatural element(which is contradictory to the problem statement) to set it off.
It'll wait and see. And it'll wait as long as it takes to see the water become the universe. Just don't know how long it'll take. And it doesn't claim it knows how long it'll take, and it doesn't claim it knows how it'll happen. Unlike other 'theories' where even though the answer is not obviously proven to be correct, it is claimed to be.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Why would one suggest that the right side is nonsense while the left side is wisdom? Please provide documented evidence.[If you'd read, instead of interpret, you'd realize I didn't.]

Rather than denigrate the perspective of another, perhaps the representative of science could just objectively state their case?[The case had been stated, I respect both for what they are, but I do not over-respect either. I criticize both where due__always, and always will.]

Science has no idea of personal, individual evolution nor do they understand the effect of evolution on any individual. by Mikal

Maybe you girls, in all your wisdom, could first explain why this isn't a lie? I didn't start the foolish statements, Mikal did, and now you've joined in. Boy, the spiritual/emotional side is really intelligent, and lacking all prejudice__Ain't it?

You have called science ignorant above, by going along with Mikal__so the more scientific minds easily see where you're coming from__pure personal hatred of science__It's plain, and can be seen no other way. Lies are lies__I call a spade a spade...

Btw, scientists and realists have all the same exact emotional intelligence, if that's what you wish to call it__we just happen to realize the higher objective sciences and realities, are of much more importance to the world, than our simple personal feelings. The 'emotional greed ego' is a very bad vice...

Nice talking to ya both,

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The arrogance lies in that both science and religion are seeking for the same thing, yet they disparage each other.

Lorrina, science and religion are not seeking for the same thing__Far from it. Religion seeks faith__Science seeks facts... And, trying to hide truth behind the emotions of the facts is impossible__They're visibly and easily seen through...

[Meem]

Faith is a product of belief, just as an opinion is a product facts.

I don't know if you've been watching the news Llyod, but have you seen how different facts used for different reasons have effected coppenhaggen?

It seems we can't agree on the facts, and people arm themselves with the faith of "my superior opined-ion." I'm not one to think that the problems of seeking truth, not claiming it or acting on it's behalf are limited to "holymen" or "scientist."

I think most professions or life paths experience this. It seems even lawyers have this problem of finding truth. Some might even arguee against it once they have found it. It would a terrible idea to think, in my opinion, that only science is capable of producing a truth, if that is what it's seeking.

It is also my view, that one should look at themselves through and through for truth before they go out looking for "the truth." If this personal search didn't cause any "trouble" or shake one up at the core, something was left burried. Truth runs deeper than surface value. What makes a person beautiful, body or mind? Does a beautiful mind take away physical beauty? I admire my people not for how beautiful they look, but how they look for beauty.

It's not quiet the same for truth. For it does matter how truthful one is and what ones does with truth if they are lucky enough to find it on their search.