Evolution and intelligent design

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Here's a few prophet's quotes Meem.

"All men have eyes, few have the gift of perception." Machiavelli
"Those who have eyes, let them see. Those who have ears, let them hear." JC

Faith is a product of belief, just as an opinion is a product facts.

I don't know if you've been watching the news Llyod, but have you seen how different facts used for different reasons have effected coppenhaggen?

It seems we can't agree on the facts, and people arm themselves with the faith of "my superior opined-ion." I'm not one to think that the problems of seeking truth, not claiming it or acting on it's behalf are limited to "holymen" or "scientist."

I think most professions or life paths experience this. It seems even lawyers have this problem of finding truth. Some might even arguee against it once they have found it. It would a terrible idea to think, in my opinion, that only science is capable of producing a truth, if that is what it's seeking.

It is also my view, that one should look at themselves through and through for truth before they go out looking for "the truth." If this personal search didn't cause any "trouble" or shake one up at the core, something was left burried. Truth runs deeper than surface value. What makes a person beautiful, body or mind? Does a beautiful mind take away physical beauty? I admire my people not for how beautiful they look, but how they look for beauty.

It's not quiet the same for truth. For it does matter how truthful one is and what ones does with truth if they are lucky enough to find it on their search.

[PoPpAScience]

Science and religion have always been a part of human reasoning. Science has moved from fire, earth, water and wind, to quantum mechanics and relativity. Religion has moved from Creator, to Transcendental Mind.

Science is the study of the machine or Body of Reality.
Religion is the study of the creative flow or Mind of Reality.
Religious Science or Scientific Religion is the study of the creative flow of the body of Reality.

Those who restrict their Logical Mind because of prejudice and hatred are, Weak thinkers. Those who state the Universe to be no more then just a lucky fluke, are Weak thinkers. Those who say there was a creator before there was form, are Weak thinkers. Both under estimate the glory of this Universe.

Restricted Minds say the Body creates Mind or the Mind creates the Body. Logical Minds say that the Evolving Body is an Evolving Mind and the Evolving Mind is an Evolving Body.

To hate religion because of the actions of humans, and to hate science because of their fear of Religion, leads to Restrictive Minds. Those who look at science and religion with out fear or predijuce, lead to Logical Minds.

Hopefully Logical Minds will someday dominate our illogical society, and bring Humanity to a new level of Intelligence.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The eternal, everlasting state

This is a good usage, for time and eternity have to do with duration, not with amount or quantity, and, of course, the state is both everlasting and never beginning. For states that may be outside of time, if that is possible, then those states just ‘are’, rather than not.


(since infinite is too offensive?)

No, not offensive, as in an emotional situation, just that it pertains to an amount, distance or counting that can never be gotten to, although not to a duration.

The use of ‘infinite’ as something that is completed is an odd usage, as its very definition means ‘never completed’. A light ray make go on and on over ever increasing amounts of distance but it never reaches the end, for the end is not there.

Nothing is actually infinite, but just potentially infinite. The amount of energy is not infinite—or we’d be packed in like sardines and couldn’t move. This is different from, say, in math where there are conceptually infinite divisona within a distance like an inch.


Which happened to give rise to; formed, allowed, birthed, (since created is too offensive?) this state.

The only choices against the causeless ground-state are that causes go on forever beneath, which can’t be, and that something can become of Nothing, which can’t be. It’s odd that people would accept that God has always been there but then reject this for the natural. The natural ground-state is at a low level of the tiny and the simple. God is the opposite, being the ultimate complexity. Any system of mind cannot be fundamental, for its parts would be more so.

A total Nothing, or alternately, a lack of anything, would still be the case if it were so; it’s just that Nothing has no what, no when or then, no who, and no where, for it is not even ‘there’ to do anything, and this is why the ground-state always was.

For one to talk about God to say that His energy made our energy does not really close the case [except in the right brain] but removes it a step to being always there, the very state that was not accepted in the first place. And what a step it is, begging the question with the largest question ever, making the answer beyond repair.

We could call it the ground state, from which .... all things just came into existence without any handymen making the next step, or next step.

There were lots of next steps, due to motion and combination.


That is a bit strange to me. I imagine that the cup of water in my hand is the only thing in existence, and I shall call it the ground state.

Something like water is not a ground-state, but a long after state. The molecules had to joing together from atoms, which in turn came from stars, which in turn had to develop from protons which… after some more inermediates stuff was emmitted from a ground-state or was recycled from an previous incarnation, such as in a cyclic universe, whose first occasion was still of the ground-state always there.

So, we see, all in all, that questions like ‘Why is there something instead of Nothing’ are stated backwards, for the ground-state was normal and natural since Nothing just can’t cut it. This makes the ground-state causeless.


Why does anything exist at all?

First, it does, and second, it had to.


Why are we in a rare and livable place?

It is that we had to be here to even talk about it.


The right brain can entertain ungrounded notions that are unfettered by detail, but then, eventually, come the details that ever haunt the notion. And this is even after the mistake of being human-centric, the stance that man is the measure of all things.

It is neither meek nor humble to suppose that humans are special and/or deserve reward in an afterlife.


And congratulations, Meem, for at least you are one who attempts to talk to the detail. Others ‘neglect’ or throw out things right and left, like the brain, reality, evolution, and even, amazingly, the wrong plain text/history in the Bible, replacing them by invisible magic and/or mumbo-jumbo in order to get uncornered by science. This maneuvering room is ever shrinking.


Science will tell, just as it did about physical illnesses not coming from evil spirits, and, too, has told about physical illnesses of the brains not being ‘sins’ caused by evil spirits.


The causless ground-state did not have a specific order to it, for there was nothing prior to it to order it. Thus, any and all possible concepts could arise. Our universe is one of them, one neither right nor wrong in any absolute sense, but not of a fluke or luck.

The time of our universe happening is not of any special moment. Therefore, any universes could be, any time or even at the same time. Ours is not even the center of all. There is no Earth-centric, human-centric, time-centric, or even universe-centric, but only humility. It is pride that wants one to be King or Queen of reality.

Yet, the right brain wants what it wants; still, energy/material is not marked holy or unholy; it just is [neutral].

[Mikal]

Sorry for disappearance but I have been off attending to the duties of life and might I add not the comfortable ones.

Upon reviewing the most recent posts I cannot help but feel that they clearly exemplify the deeper meaning of, “turning a molehill into a mountain.” So I must thank you for drawing that meaning into full clarity.

In my opinion RP and Meem won the day. RP because what is received seems to come from a person of wise words who surely must come from an interiority of goodwill to all and Meem because what is received seems to come from a person of genuine, sincere honesty who surely must come from an interiority of self-integrity.

LW, I must thank you for your personal integrity which supported me and I did feel bad that you going out on a limb to state your feelings there and stand on your own convictions seemed to bring you under the mantle of criticism.

All in all, it just continues to be a learning experience.


Regards Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Thanks, judge.

The quantum realm indeed turned a molehill of jitters into a mountain of a universe writ large.

Any response to any details at all in any way? Or just a declaration and a pronouncement that goodwill knows all?

The point to RP was that no supernatural effects have been seen.

The point to Meem was that a glass of water was not the ground-state.

You are only proving the points of 'neglect' that were made.

[Meem]

I have been busy preping for a 1000 mile move. In the process of driving home to only drive back later. We couldn't be in better spirits I suppose.

Lots going on here and there are several things I'd like to comment on but going to do so one at a time. As I am texving it's ok, I am in the middle of nowhere ( trying to get the better half to drive) on the interstate.

Austin,

Water is the first thing we cite for sustainable life, I think it serves a metaphorical allegory of the "ground-state" rather well. It is the base fluid for any flavor of drink one might choose. I here NASA is considering having a pool-party on the moon. My body is mostly water, and all the food I eat requires water to grow. It gave birth to life on this planet.

Ironically, it is made of "light" (hydrogen fuel cells-the sun?) and air. As for what I know, we cannot reproduce it,(although we are able to make process which creates water vapor)for being a very basic structure, it is extremely dynamic in its properties.

If you choose to remove it so easily, I suppose you may, but as for me, I cannot.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Water is not removable from life; however, we were discussing the actual uncaused ground-state of all, not the upper floors.

Where are you moving to, Meem?

[Meem]

Austin,

I am not saying apples are oranges. I think I would be underestimating you if I chose to believe, that you would understand me to say literally, rather to say water is to life as the "ground-state" is to the universe.

I'll be living near the boulder area, not quite sure of the specific just yet. I feel at home around the mountains. Can't wait to be there.

[austintorn@aol.com]

HI Meem,

It's just that beyond the ground-state there is cause and evolution. God, as the Intelligent Designer, doesn't make a good ground-state.

People often cite 'on/by/of/through faith' as a reason of a stopping point. While it may often end the sentence, there is then only all the more to explain.

If we replace 'faith' by what it means, then one is saying "I believe because it is an invisible, unknown, unseen." (?)

While this is true for some, it may also be that they believe because that is what they want. (?)

I like Denver and the ski-mountains beyond.


MIkal,

You 'forget' to explain how it is that none of the sciences can know about the person and their capability to grow inside.

[labelwench]

Hello Austin,

I am one of those who has faith.

Not faith in a religion, and not faith in a science, yet faith that the paradox in the two viewpoints is perfectly normal.

Faith that both Science and Religion will continue to evolve and possible develop more tolerance for their differences.

Science provides us with practical tools and Religion allows us to hope.

Both skills evolved unto our species for a purpose.

Though I may not know the purpose, I have faith in accepting these evolved skills as tools with which I navigate through life.

As long as both Science and Religion are optional choices and the intent is to do good, rather than harm, I am able to respect both, yet have neither as a dogma.