Evolution and intelligent design

[austintorn@aol.com]

Hi Label,

Hope is part of what humans are already capable of, so that's true and doesn't need to be taken on faith.

Dogma is faith since it is merely pronounced with no evidence.

Evolution has evidence; intelligent design has none; it is a wish.

Science and religion are getting closer, evolution being accepted by the Pope, for example, until the ground-state, and then they are as different as night and day.

Religion proposes God as a stopping point for design, then absolves God, a much more massive design, of being designed, already pre-defining what it sets out to prove. The answer is first, the questions never. Science is more of the opposite approach.

[labelwench]

Both the terms 'faith' and 'dogma', in their definitions, use the term 'on authority', and I concede that authority is not evidence.

I use the word faith as a reliance or trust founded on the evidence of my own experience and senses, all of which is subjective in the extreme, yet I rely on the same subjectivity of others to assist me in attaining a broader perspective or balance, which may be as close as one can come to objectivity.

'Dogma' is defined as a tenet or doctrinal system laid down by another, and I accept the belief system of no other than myself, which may sound arrogant in the extreme, yet is the only real 'evidence' that I am comfortable with.

My opinions are fluid, as my realization is that all is ever-changing, and so to assume a static position, would be to remove myself from the flow of energy and ideas that comprise life.

May our minds never atrophy.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The problem with dogma is that it is unchanging. Science has no dogma, since science is changeable and improvable.

In dogmatic areas to be, I guess people first just wish and hope for [imaginary] ideas to be true. So far, so good, as people are free to do. Then they may go on to believe it and state that the ideas are true. This is half OK, as it may not go beyond the person. When it goes beyond, it may be trouble, for it's obvious that wishing doesn't make an idea true. Again, though, if it forces people to do good, that's great. If nonbelievers are considered evil and acted against, then it can be very bad.

It is not even so interesting to science that science finds wishful 'truth' to be nonsense, as it must, for that is plain. What's interesting to science is to understand and explain why people would so readily leap from wish to truth [and maybe then have to protect and defend it] and be oblivious to any inquiry, considering it 'case closed'.

So, who has some ideas on this?

[Mikal]

You 'forget' to explain how it is that none of the sciences can know about the person and their capability to grow inside….quote by Austin



Austin, growing inside or personal, individual evolution is an intra-psychic journey where the barriers created by social conditioning break down and allow necessary existential needs to evolve.

It becomes an experience of oppositional internal conflict which releases the emotion of anxiety which is released in stages of intensity. Spiritual growth is a psychological drama of varying levels of intra-psychic pain. Because this is most uncomfortable it takes leaps of faith to traverse through many intra-psychic levels.

The ancients called this purging, purifying or releasing the pressure of emotion buried in the subjective mind because the subjective (subconscious) is somewhat at the mercy of the objective mind which functions to constitute personality (the contents of the Ego or sheathe of consciousness the Natural Mind unfolds to search for existential meaning in relationships.) This process was meant to be social learning but unfortunately our civilization went into social conditioning which erroneously constitutes a false self which is an intra-psychic strategy system of defense, fear, pride, guilt, self-pity, self-hatred….etc all held together by emotional pressure.

The intra-psychic journey is the dispelling of the internal structure of this entire intra-psychic strategy system. This is an immense journey in terms of character and ethical change. The release of emotion and the release of anxiety drive this process and the process can be months and years according to the needs of the will (pure striving) the needs of the feelings to be active, the needs of ethical conduct, needs to experience beyond normal psychological barriers, personal need for degree of maturity of mind. (Intellect)

In earlier posts I gave you particular statements from the Bible that reveal suffering (internal/intra-psychic) precedes
the search for meaning in life. I told you how the historical Moses and Christ were structured into 40 systems which represent psychological processes, loops in the mind and the experience of binaries for example internal experience and examination of love/hate; fear/anger…etc.

The process is all about not only re-connection to the Natural Mind, the state of neutral feeling, not part of the binary and the functions of projection and introjections, but is also connection to Equanimity or the ability to be unaffected by any kind of stress. The person no longer needs personal nature scripted by outer objective value statements. This is a 3 way process of dialectical change where the ego is in crisis, the soul is in crisis and the mind is in crisis. Evolution is not linear, it is dialectical. This is the process of going from instability, to stability to flexibility where feelings incite change, mind incites patterns of change and will (pure striving) incites stability of patterns.

I took the journey because my soul has reached a particular level of need that represents personal and individual evolution. This does not make me important where I must aggrandize myself; it means my life holds some importance to learning to detach from any form of world denial, for example addiction, fantasy, imagination. As far as this process is concerned I have only touched here on a small part of it when you consider this process lasted from 1977 to 2004 which is 27 years.


Regards Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Here's a more reasonable 'God'/Design for those so inclined,
one not made into a monster:


GOD ON TRIAL

Part 1/2

“Jehovah’s” trial for crimes
Against humanity begins thusly,
But ends well:

“Do you, God, sweareth to tellest us the whole truth
And nothing but the truth, so helpest you God?”

“Which scriptures of what bible should I swear on?
There are so many.”

“Oh; here’s a Mormon bible with a whole extra section
That was transcribed from the golden plates You sent.”

“I didn’t send those plates.”

“OK, let’s not worry about that now;
We’ll come back to it later.
You are truthful, are you not?”

“I can do no evil, and that includes not lying.”

“Finally, a believable defendant.
What is your full name?”

“‘God Damnit’ is what I am usually called.”

“Ha-ha, but what is your real and proper name?”

“None. I am what I am.”

“Um, any aliases, like Lord,
Jehovah, Almighty, or such?”

“No.”

“Are you sure?”

“Yes, those are just some names that people call me,
Plus even the very bad names.”

“But you do exist as you are?”

“Depends on what the meaning of ‘exists’ is.”

“You know, like ‘to be’, being One that is.”

“Depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

“Is that your lawyer, Bill Clinton, sitting over there?”

“Yes, for he can get out of anything.”

“But is he going to talk endlessly in your defense?”

“No, he has been going to ‘On and on anon’.”

“Good, now how come we can hear
You but we can’t see You?”

“I am invisible, plus, you are schizophrenics.”

“Hey, no name calling, order in the court!”

“I’ll have a cheeseburger, no pickles, no onions.”

“That’s more like it.
So you mean we are just hearing voices?”

“Yes—do you remember the study that showed
That 17% percent of priests are schizophrenic,
But only 1-2% of the general population is?”

“Oh, yeah, but You’re not getting off that easily.”

“I am innocent.”

“What did You do before You Created everything?”

“I was being made Myself by Myself.”

“How did You do that?”

“Recursively.”

“OK, anyway,
Did you have intercourse with a teen-age virgin?”

“Hell, no, she was underage;
I only date 30 billion year old women.”

“Still single?”

“Yes, for as Mr. Always Right
I could just never find Miss Perfect.”

“So, Jesus was not Your son then?”

“No, but he was a really good guy—
A human telling stories
That everyone expected to hear.”

“But, anyway, you are a ‘He’?”

“So they usually say.”

“Don’t You know?”

“No, for humans created Me in their own image
And with their own traits, so I am male.”

“Jealous of any of their other imaginary gods?”

“I am above all that lowly human-type emotion stuff.
I am Perfectly Good and absolutely totally full of Love.”

“Love is a human emotion.”

“That is the only emotion I have,
For it is the ultimate one.”

“So, You never do evil?”

“Depends on what ‘evil’ is.”

“Well, as in things
Like harming others, except in self defense,
Stifling the growth of mind,
And creating false ways of living,
Arbitrarily, through use of imagination
Of what the concept of good ‘should be’.”

“I am not capable of evil.
I detest evil.
I would hate Myself if I did evil.
It is unthinkable.
Then I would be in the category of a devil.”

“Is there a Devil?”

“No, I would not tolerate any such thing,
For then it would sway humans to sin.”

“You appear to be without fault,
But we still have to continue this trial.”

“Thank you, but I have no-fault insurance.”

“Did you murder almost everyone
On earth with a Great Flood?”

“Heck no, human nature is exactly
The way it is supposed it to be, as is.
What do you think!
God not a big fat goof, that is, if He was involved.
He doesn’t make mistakes.”

“Some say that you invented the rainbow
To proclaim that You made a mistake,
Claiming that You would never do it again.”

“Preposterous. Rainbows are an optical effect.”

“Do You ever do anything wrong?”

“I can’t. I am all Love.”

“Did you give too much love, perhaps?”

“Yes, I give near infinite amounts,
But there’s nothing wrong with that.”

“What was the purpose
Of having dinosaurs around
For 650 million years,
Then extincting them via asteroids?”

“Just playing around;
Actually, I had nothing to do with it.”

“What was the Intelligent Design in this?”

“There wasn’t any, for I do not exist.
Can I go now?”

“No, we know that nonexistence trick.
Whose side are you on in football games?”

“I don’t take sides or play favorites.”

“Then where do humans
Get all these ideas about You?”

“You know humans—they just make things up.”

“Is there a Hell,
Like maybe in the heart of the sun?”

“No, there is no Hell.
I wouldn’t torture my beloved creatures
If I were God.
Would you torture a kitten?”

“Some would, but, hey,
It is You that is on trial here, not us.
We only have our human nature
That You may have given us
And it can often go astray.”

“True, plus I am a nice Guy, the nicest ever.
I would not fill your cup to the brim with temptations
And then expect you not to spill it.
I’m a giver, not a taker.
Pure love is all giving;
There are no strings attached.”

“Thanks. Does our free will have to match your will”?

“Heavens no, for that wouldn’t be free will, would it?”

“So, there’s not even a purgatory,
Like somewhere on Venus?”

“Negative.”

“How do humans come up with all these things?
They make You out to be some kind
Of strict enforcer father figure type.”

“That’s it; they modeled the family experience.”

“Is there a Heaven?”

“Yes.”

“Ah-ha, where is it?”

“On Earth. What more could human beings want?”

“Oh, well they want everything
And even think they are special and above all else,
Some even above their own kind.”

“Nope, humans are as organic as anything in nature.
Anyone can see that.”

“Well, we have imagination.”

“Yes, a gift of Nature, but that’s all it is.”

“Did You publish a book?”

“Yes, but no, for ghost writers wrote it.”

“Any movies coming out?”

“No, it would be hard to beat ‘The Dark Knight’.”

“No Commandments were ever issued?”

“Love does not command; it frees.”

“That’s true.
So You are innocent of all charges
And plead not guilty?”

“How many times do I have to tell you.
I am Absolute Good.”

“Ever tell a white lie?”

“No way, Jose. I am the Truth.”

“Ever peek at a naked person.”

“Of course, God made people that way.
If He didn’t want it that way,
They’d be born with clothes or fur.
Some fools even put fig leaves over Eden’s artwork.”

“I must confess to You, God,
That I sometimes think of people naked.”

“No sweat, plus that’s also a way
To make public speaking easier.
I am naked Myself. It’s OK.”

“Ever stick gum somewhere
When no one was looking?”

“No, for I was looking.”

“You are a saint!”

“Higher than that. I am Perfect,
At least before I got conceited about it.”

“Ah-ha.”

“Just joking.”

[austintorn@aol.com]

Part 2/3

“Did You make Cosmic Jokes,
Like, in sexual human anatomy,
Putting a toxic waste dump
Near a recreation area?”

“God does have a sense of humor.”

“How come You didn’t give humans everything?”

“If I gave them everything,
They’ll have no place to put it all.”

“A dictionary has ‘everything’.”

“In a way, plus Wikipedia is good, too.”

“How come birth certificates have expiration dates,
Some even sooner than later?”

“They must, otherwise, evolution wouldn’t work.”

“Did some monkey types descend from the trees?”

“Yes, for your DNA matches theirs 98%.”

“So, evolution is true, but not you as a Creator?”

“I keep telling you,
Leaving signs all over the earth,
You fossil to be.”

“You don’t rule or lord Yourself over anyone?”

“Love serves; love does not rule.”

“We have witnesses to some of your crimes.”

“No one can witness Me,
Besides, they made all that up.”

“Likely story.
Did you choose a tribe and tell Moses
To crush some other tribes?”

“Those are just ancient Jewish legends.”

“How come Moses didn’t ask for directions
When he was lost for 40 years in the desert.”

“He’s a man; they never ask.”

“Ever let someone just make it
Through a developing traffic accident?”

“What! And let some other poor sap
Get hurt or die instead?
You don’t know Me very well.”

“So, You don’t write scripts for our human soap operas.”

“No, truth is stranger than fiction.”

“Why are You invisible?”

“I am a figment. Have faith.”

“What’s faith?”

“Belief in the invisible unseen unknown.”

“You can’t get off the hook that easily.
We can still try you in absentia.”

“I’m being very cooperative.”

“Thanks. Now, Mr. God, Sir,
Did you send a plague of locusts
To harm the welfare of humankind?”

“I wouldn’t think of it;
Harmful options don’t even surface
In my mind for consideration.”

“No lightning bolts?”

“That was Mother Nature, not me.”

“Well, as you are a self-made Man,
Then what stuff did You use
To make Yourself out of,
Plus all that is?”

“I didn’t make all that is;
I only made Myself out of
The fundament stuff available.
Then I accidently made humankind
From the same stuff,
Some debris that I threw out.”

“So, you are not at all responsible
For Mother Nature’s doings?”

“No, nor did I make the universe,
For I am made of it.”

“You are not fundamental and absolute?”

“No, for a system of mind and emotion
Like Mine or yours requires moving parts.
I am perfect, however.”

“That’s still a lofty position.”

“I am just fortunate to be as I am;
I never look down on anyone less;
My talent is a given;
I can’t even really take any credit.
I am just further along in evolution than you are.
Cats, too, have reached a kind of perfection for their form.”

“You evolved beyond the material plane?”

“Yes, I am pure waves and fields and thus not seeable.
You all will get there someday, too.
I just helped you all along the path,
With only your best interests at heart.”

“We will all become Gods?”

“Certainly.”

“You don’t interfere in our world on Earth?”

“No, for then you would miss all the fun.
Knowing everything is not really that great.”

“There would be no surprises.”

“Exactly.”

“Do you overrule all or part of reality in any way?”

“No, I’m not bossy.”

“Do you underlie all or part of reality in any way?”

“Nope, as I said, I am in this universe
And therefore of this universe;
I am just higher up the food chain.”

“So, in our terms,
You are just a very powerful but loving alien.”

“That I am.
And if any hostile Ones approach me,
I will defend Myself.”

“Thanks, for that may help us, too.”

“True, but you are all completely free to be and do.”

“How come You allow/give this to us?”

“It’s the greatest gift that Love can give.”

“Thanks, again.
You seem a good Guy,
But we still have a few more questions,
Plus, you know, we can’t really consider any gifts
That You gave to us when we make our ruling.
I hope you understand,
For we are often approached with bribes.”

“Money talks.”

“For me it just usually says ‘Goodbye’.”

“But when it returns you might say,
‘Hey, glad to see you; I’ve missed you;
Where have you been all my life?”

“You’re a fun Guy.
So, what is all this holy-holy admiration stuff
That humans do in and for your Name?”

“I don’t know; it’s really weird, isn’t it?”

“I thought You knew everything.”

“Well, by staying out of the way,
I chose not to know.”

“What made the stuff
That we and You are made of?”

“I’m not sure;
I only know everything from Me onwards;
That stuff could have appeared in the universe
From somewhere else,
Or have been here forever,
Or appeared via some kind of possibility.
It is not marked as holy or unholy.”

“Well, that’s immaterial, anyway.
Back to our probe.”

“I ain’t never did anything terrible nohow!”

[austintorn@aol.com]

Part 3/3

“Ever do anything wrong at all?”

“I threw some litter into space
Because there was no where else to put it.”

“What litter?”

“The excess atoms that made your world.”

“Well, no harm done.”

“Do angels exist, having wings and all that?”

“No, not as humans have defined them.
Wings are useless in space; there is no air.
There are more ETs than Me, however.”

“We thought so.”

“Is there a Bigfoot?”

“Ha, ha. Those are just hoaxes put forth
By some hicks in the southern US.”

“Isn’t ‘hick’ a bad name?”

“No, I am just describing an actual fact,
For which the word ‘hick’ is perfectly descriptive.
I have to use words that you can understand.”

“So, You’ve never been seen,
And just about everything bad said about You
By humans is false; so, what’s left?”

“Not much, just Me as not ‘God’.”

“But You created us; you helped us along.”

“Well, in a way, but that was quite inadvertent.
You would have formed somewhere sometime anyway.
Some of my ‘trash’ formed your solar system;
Then you evolved.
Your population was down
To less than a thousand once,
And I guess some of my
Good vibrations rubbed off on them
As I passed by on my way
To pick up some rare elements on Pluto.
I was building a new house
That can withstand all eternity.
The weather in space is always bad;
It’s full of radiation of all sorts.”

“Strange weather all over the earth, too.”

“There are many hurricanes that began
From a hint of a wisp of a breeze.”

“Mr. ET, is there way to tell
The future of the weather?”

“The 2009 Farmer’s Almanac just came out.”

“So, how do we speed up evolution?”

“Takes time,
But you could enhance your own chemistry,
As I did.”

“Sounds dangerous.”

“It is; I was a Jeckyl and Hyde for a while.”

“Ah-ha, that’s when
You committed crimes against humanity!”

“No, I was far away, plus that was 35 billion years ago.”

“Oh, but do You have an alibi?”

“No, I was all there was then,
But I have pictures.”

“Let’s see.”

“I don’t have then with me,
But they are very similar to those
Taken by the Hubble telescope.”

“You were there among those
Trillions of stars and galaxies?”

“Yes, but I was already semitransparent by then.”

“It would be like on eof those
‘Where’s Waldo’ puzzles.”

“You’ll just have to take my Word
If you cannot prove otherwise.”

“What is the purpose of life?”

“To live.”

“What is life?”

“You are life.”

“Is life and all really just a bunch of
Atomic spinning things of various compositions?”

“That’s it.”

“Nothing more?”

“There can be no more, for that is all there is.”

“Why do we keep hoping for more?”

“Greed and having no gratitude.
Still you are a sparkling billion year product
And quite amazing.”

“We are pretty cool when you think about it.”

“That all it takes to appreciate life.”

“Any other universes?”

“Sure, but many did not amount to anything.
However, I am going on vacation
To a good one next week.”

“Be sure to send a post card saying
‘Wish you were here’,
That is, if there is oxygen there.”

“Will do.
Lucky for you here that bacteria and plants
Came about and made oxygen.
Thenceforth you began as you.”

“Yes, a lucky break;
Oxygen was a mere waste product
From photosynthesis.”

“See, all is as it seems.
No need to invent any supernatural Intent
To blame or thank for anything.”

“All is as it did?”

“Yes, that’s why it took so long.”

“Indeed, A true God type Creator
Could have done it instantly,
Not even needing 6 days,
Or getting tired on the 7th.”

“Yes, but the All is an origin, not a Creator.
The ground-state was always around,
And so there was no creation, and no Creator.”

“Yikes, then what should we do?”

“Just be.”

“OK, good advice, but,
If we ever find that there was a Culprit Creator
Who committed some of the very crimes
That His commandments spoke against,
Like murder, destruction, or hatred,
Then He is really going to be toast.”

“As He should be,
For those acts would have been unconscionable,
Especially for Someone of that high stature.”

“Thanks for your testimony.
We’ll call it the Third Testament.
Your judgment day is near at hand.
I’m calling a one hour recess.”

…

“All please rise.”

“The court finds You not guilty on all counts,
Due to lack of evidence, plus Your good nature.”

“Evidence for those like Me is not even conceivable.”

“True. Thank you everyone.
Please bring in the next case.”

Austin walks in.
“Did you leave the toilet seat up in a household
Where there were females present?”

“Well, maybe, yes I did, but…”

“100 years of hard labor in Siberia.”

[leskey]

The problem with dogma is that it is unchanging. Science has no dogma, since science is changeable and improvable.

In dogmatic areas to be, I guess people first just wish and hope for [imaginary] ideas to be true. So far, so good, as people are free to do. Then they may go on to believe it and state that the ideas are true. This is half OK, as it may not go beyond the person. When it goes beyond, it may be trouble, for it's obvious that wishing doesn't make an idea true. Again, though, if it forces people to do good, that's great. If nonbelievers are considered evil and acted against, then it can be very bad.

It is not even so interesting to science that science finds wishful 'truth' to be nonsense, as it must, for that is plain. What's interesting to science is to understand and explain why people would so readily leap from wish to truth [and maybe then have to protect and defend it] and be oblivious to any inquiry, considering it 'case closed'.

So, who has some ideas on this?

Another has raised the subject of lying...so, in relation to the holders of wishful truth, it seems clarification is necessary:

DOGMA: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

TENET: a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true; especially : one held in common by members of an organization, movement, or profession

While some who hold religious beliefs could be described as dogmatic, science would also seem to literally drip with those who are subject to the same condition, ie: humans of any descripton.

[austintorn@aol.com]

it seems clarification is necessary:

DOGMA: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

Yes, without adequate ground, as in religion, but for scientists, no, for they work the other way round, providing grounds for mysteries, case open instead of case closed after a mere 'say so'.

For example, when Newton's gravitation didn't work for near light speed, it was noted and eventually amended by Einsteins findings. Religious dogma would say that the guiding hand of God made for the safe orbits of the planets around the sun.

The real difference is if opinion can be backed by real evidence that is not invisible, imaginary or unknown.

One can use QM, say, to build devices that work, and so forth.

[leskey]

it seems clarification is necessary:

DOGMA: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

Yes, without adequate ground, as in religion, but for scientists, no, for they work the other way round, providing grounds for mysteries, case open instead of case closed after a mere 'say so'.

For example, when Newton's gravitation didn't work for near light speed, it was noted and eventually amended by Einsteins findings. Religious dogma would say that the guiding hand of God made for the safe orbits of the planets around the sun.

The real difference is if opinion can be backed by real evidence that is not invisible, imaginary or unknown.

One can use QM, say, to build devices that work, and so forth.

Sure, Austin, but we're already living within and observing the processes of the greatest device that works.