Science—religion at war—the battle for a stable world-view

[Mikal]

Hi Possum, isn't this a bit like saying I know nothing about Art, but I know what I like.

I doubt I'd ever want to hang a Blanche painting upon my wall but his overly ornate Durer-influenced style works wonderfully well for the Warhammer world as it was in the 1980s - modern day Games Workshop artwork is all too clean, too designed and approved by committee to actually work well in my eyes.


cool bananas ... greg

“I am well aware that scarcely a single point is discussed in this volume on which facts cannot be adduced, often apparently leading to conclusions directly opposite to those at which I have arrived. A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question.”—Charles Darwin-On the Origin of Species, 1859

I think Darwin said it all here and isn’t this what all involved parties are doing—balancing the facts and arguments for a fair result.

Darwin’s theory does not just disturb me because of what I know about how this world works…but his work came before knowledge of DNA and most importantly an understanding of Master Genes. I would think that this is crucial information necessary to any theory of evolution.

Regards Mikal

[Mikal]

I don’t see the answer as to posit a higher intelligence to make a lessor one, for it’s just a larger question instead. Why would some just stop there as an ‘answer’? Perhaps, because God is God, able to spring into His own and ultimate complexity all at once? And so there we go off again into the assertions of strong belief… a useless endeavor and a time-wasting non-point of going against.

Not sure anyway how there could be an intelligence behind something that took a numbingly slow and plodding time of billions of years to progress. I guess the tiny accumulations add up, each new one atop an already stable platform, awaiting the dire need for it.

Dawkins states cumulative natural selection as the alternative to Intelligent Design, not chance, and certainly not chances all in a row at once.

Is that not a really strong belief you have in Darwinism???
Myself I’m watching the battle, following the ammunition and observing what gets shot down.

Regards Mikal

[Mikal]

We are like-minded thinkers who have learned about evolution, with no strong beliefs in invisibles inhibiting us to make us shy away or neglect the subject.

Invisibles are not something you believe, they are something you experience. Its so astounding and puzzling and so contrary to anything you were ever told about life that it drives you to create and refine your own critical consciousness....it makes you evolve!!

Regards Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Is that not a really strong belief you have in Darwinism???

No, not a mere belief, for there is evidence.

Myself I’m watching the battle, following the ammunition and observing what gets shot down.

Here's a new shot fired by Stephen Hawkings:

Hawkings was recently interviewed where he made the following statements:

Hawking told Diane Sawyer that "science will win" in a battle with religion "because it works."

"What could define God [is a conception of divinity] as the embodiment of the laws of nature. However, this is not what most people would think of that God," Hawking told Sawyer. "They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible."

Hawking's latest book, "The Grand Design," challenged Isaac Newton's theory that the solar system could not have been created without God. "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to ... set the Universe going," he writes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...-a-fairy-story

He explained that there is no God and humans should therefore seek to live the most valuable lives they can while on Earth.

Also:

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers. The countries are Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

[austintorn@aol.com]

Invisibles are not something you believe, they are something you experience. Its so astounding and puzzling and so contrary to anything you were ever told about life that it drives you to create and refine your own critical consciousness....it makes you evolve!!

Regards Mikal

You still attributed the sensations to 'God', thereby defining Him, but we don't want to get into individual definitions, as they cannot be shown to all.

[Mikal]

No, not a mere belief, for there is evidence.




Here's a new shot fired by Stephen Hawkings:

Hawkings was recently interviewed where he made the following statements:

Hawking told Diane Sawyer that "science will win" in a battle with religion "because it works."

"What could define God [is a conception of divinity] as the embodiment of the laws of nature. However, this is not what most people would think of that God," Hawking told Sawyer. "They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible."

Hawking's latest book, "The Grand Design," challenged Isaac Newton's theory that the solar system could not have been created without God. "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to ... set the Universe going," he writes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...-a-fairy-story

He explained that there is no God and humans should therefore seek to live the most valuable lives they can while on Earth.

Also:

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers. The countries are Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

Remembering Austin that I’m not religious……
What makes you think this is just about religion?? There is much more involved here besides religion. This thing has tentacles that reach into existence, meaning and purpose in people’s lives, abuse of power, how we are protected from corruption getting into our social institutions, the assurance of a just society and even the fall of civilization. Its about the ‘glue’ that determines how much we respect life where something holds us back from playing God ourselves.

Its not a small issue, it’s a big issue!!

Thanks for the contribution of information. Any quotes that come into this thread should be covering all sides of the issue.

Would God be the embodiment of the laws of nature? I would think so and also the one responsible for all the building blocks of life.

I wish Hawking would have been more specific here when he says, ‘they made a human like being with whom one can have a personal relationship.’ I mean did he mean the people or religion? Don’t forget in the past religion was a hierarchal institution out to control the masses no different than any other hierarchal system that controls the masses.

Creation from nothing sounds weird to me. If I want to create a sweater for example I cannot create it without knitting needles, wool, a pattern or design to follow and then the time to create it. Same goes with a house, you need architects plans, you need cement, wood, tools…etc….
Gee maybe gravity works only on the physical and not on the spirit…the spirit is after all intangible and immaterial.

Setting the universe going also sounds weird to me. The other day I read this blog by a scientist who said, ‘how could we ever think anything could be created out of an explosion because every explosion we have ever seen gives us nothing but destruction of everything in its path.’ I thought that was a really interesting thing to say in regards the Big Bang.

By the last remark there I’d say Hawking can be counted among the atheists as it seems quite evident by the remark.
I often wonder why people are not able to separate the God of religion from the Creator…even intelligent men like Hawking.
Weird stuff I tell you!

Thanks for the link but I already told you Austin a couple of years ago that this is the end of the age—religion will not carry the psyche of man in this new age.

Regards Mikal

[Mikal]

You still attributed the sensations to 'God', thereby defining Him, but we don't want to get into individual definitions, as they cannot be shown to all.

I can't help that the creator is in the mix of the experience Austin and I don't think I defined God, I think I said one experiences the nature of God. Its quite a powerful experience and boy you would have to be devoid of all or any curiosity to not wonder why on earth it is possible for man to have such an experience. Believe me I am the most down to earth person one could get....maybe thats why it happened to me. I just don't know but I will always wonder.....

Regards Mikal

[Graybeard]

Hi Possum .... you have taken on a lot with this thread ..... lol

“I am well aware that scarcely a single point is discussed in this volume on which facts cannot be adduced, often apparently leading to conclusions directly opposite to those at which I have arrived. A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question.”—Charles Darwin-On the Origin of Species, 1859

I think Darwin said it all here and isn’t this what all involved parties are doing—balancing the facts and arguments for a fair result.

So since 1859 ... don't you think we have managed to balance facts and arguments. Evolution is now considered by nearly all reasoning people to be a fact ? or do you see his statement as something that he never meant to be resolved ?

Darwin’s theory does not just disturb me because of what I know about how this world works…but his work came before knowledge of DNA and most importantly an understanding of Master Genes. I would think that this is crucial information necessary to any theory of evolution.

Regards Mikal

But ... But ... without Darwin's theory we would never have known to start the search for the primal cause. DNA. You need to keep things in sequence, his theory pointed to DNA ?

cool bananas Possum ... greg

[austintorn@aol.com]

What makes you think this is just about religion??

Um, science_religion_at war.

This thing has tentacles…

The Blob of Big Bang destruction?

Thanks for the link but I already told you Austin a couple of years ago that this is the end of the age—religion will not carry the psyche of man in this new age.

Dang. Religion already lost the war.

[austintorn@aol.com]

and I don't think I defined God, I think I said one experiences the nature of God.

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