Hey all

[Guttedpleasure]

Its been a long time since I found a site that would allow me to question my beliefs and those of others in an endless search for truth. This site seems like more than I could ever ask for, an opportunity for me to grow and maybe help others grow and understand more. What more could anyone ask for?

[Guille]

Hi, welcome around.

Our search for truth is harder than any for it is the search for the whole truth (TOE) not just simply truth. I believe we can ask for nothing greater than acheiving this, and whether we are intelligent beings (as so many scientists claim) or not, is to be proven by this challenge. I hope you can share your thoughts and others share with you.

Do you believe the TOE should be philosophical or scientific?

[Guttedpleasure]

Is it possible for an ever changing entity, such as people in general, to ever come up with a single unified thoery? And even if we ever do, our perceptions will change as we change and will that cause us to nullify our old thoery of everything? And if we have a unified thoery, then wont that be a 'perfect' thoery? And can imperfect creatures every hope to find all the connections and bind them together into a single thoery?

But you're right, we can ask for nothing greater and we should actively seek for it. We may never reach the final destination but we will have grown along the way. It's not the destination thats important but the journey.

I feel that to have a unified thoery of everything all aspects of human nature, the persuit of knowledge as well as philisophical persuits, need to be included. I think we will have better luck in philosophy though.

I also think that should we ever come up with a scientific toe that many might reject it because it's too fantastic, we will need to philisophicly make ourselves open to one before it will come. What does that entail? I'm not sure, but I think that through efforts such as toequest.com we are leading up to that. And I think at the moment that that is enough.

[subversion]

Is it possible for an ever changing entity, such as people in general, to ever come up with a single unified thoery? And even if we ever do, our perceptions will change as we change and will that cause us to nullify our old thoery of everything? And if we have a unified thoery, then wont that be a 'perfect' thoery? And can imperfect creatures every hope to find all the connections and bind them together into a single thoery?

But you're right, we can ask for nothing greater and we should actively seek for it. We may never reach the final destination but we will have grown along the way. It's not the destination thats important but the journey.

I feel that to have a unified thoery of everything all aspects of human nature, the persuit of knowledge as well as philisophical persuits, need to be included. I think we will have better luck in philosophy though.

I also think that should we ever come up with a scientific toe that many might reject it because it's too fantastic, we will need to philisophicly make ourselves open to one before it will come. What does that entail? I'm not sure, but I think that through efforts such as toequest.com we are leading up to that. And I think at the moment that that is enough.

Very well put, and welcome to the Forums. To answer your question, theoretically it is possible for one man to discover the TOE. Once developed, the theory of everything will always be immutable, and it will be perfect. You're right, it's not possible for an imperfect species to behold or design a theory of everything. Thus when/if we behold it, it will mean that we are and always have been perfect afterall, as lifeforms. So we are dealing with the great possibility here that life, existence, and humans, are perfect, if the theory of everything exists and is discovered. If an individual discovers the TOE, then in a scientific sense that person would be considered the perfect person. The idea of a perfect person is historically similar to the notion of a messiah but that scares a lot of people who don't realize it's not religious but rather a facet of the scientific nature of the TOE, as the ultimate thing. In that we will use it for our own good and the good of everything, the TOE also leaves open the scientific possibility of salvation, and thus the person who discovers it has the possibility of being like a savior, in a scientific sense.

You are also correct that if we come up with a scientifically valid TOE it may be too fantastic, in other words, too good for people to believe to be true. So philosophically we will have to make ourselves open, by being optimistic and full of hope. This is what I'm trying to encourage people to do to prepare them for the advent of the TOE, so I have tried to teach them to have faith and to be optimistic but unfortunately it has caused them to call me a fool. What do you think about that?

[harmonygirl]

Sub,
I think that even if we were able to perceive the TOE, you are right, I don't think we are evolved enough to handle it (or to keep it from being used for nefarious political ends--cf. Oppenheimer)
welcome guttedpleasure, from whence comes your name?
Also, now that I think about it, what makes us imperfect? Are we not our own perfect selves (ie designed as imperfect)? I am not talking about hypothetical perfect people, but aren't you the perfect you and I am the perfect me? (cf free will debate)...

[subversion]

Sub,
I think that even if we were able to perceive the TOE, you are right, I don't think we are evolved enough to handle it (or to keep it from being used for nefarious political ends--cf. Oppenheimer)
welcome guttedpleasure, from whence comes your name?
Also, now that I think about it, what makes us imperfect? Are we not our own perfect selves (ie designed as imperfect)? I am not talking about hypothetical perfect people, but aren't you the perfect you and I am the perfect me? (cf free will debate)...

Well thank you for letting me know harmonygirl. I think you have spoken when you say that humans are not ready to handle the TOE. Very well then, I shall be leaving now. But wait, you said that we are perfect! So why are we not ready then?

[harmonygirl]

Okay, you're making me work for this! I am not saying that we are objectively perfect, just that we may be perfect versions of ourselves (as human and I guess therefore not objectively perfect). My belief that we can't handle the TOE stems from the fact that we are not objectively perfect. You would handle the TOE perfectly for you, I would handle it perfectly for me, but we might not handle it the same way (or even believe that what the other did with the TOE was ethical). Each according to her abilities.....

[Guttedpleasure]

Looks like I have several things i need to reply to.
First off I would like to say to Subversion that all people who make a stand on any subject have those who are for them and those who are against them. You say that many call you a fool, but how many are grateful for the effort you are giving to make the world a better place by trying to prepare them for the toe? If you choose to focus on all the positive things people say to you then I believe you will be happier and also more motivated to this cause. If you focus on the bad then the opposite would happen.

And then to Harmonygirl. My name I got from a close frind of mine. He was a insanely inteligent in english and also liked to draw. He however was attracted to blood and gore. I couldnt think of a name for a login name to another site a while back and he just blurted that out. No one ever has it so it has stuck. In a way it's his legacy to me.

And I'll say this in response to what subversion said about the toe being used for the good of mankind. People would always be seeking to use it for bad as well as good. The toe would include the bad possibilities as well as the good posibilities. Could people be trusted with that power? All it would do is tell them what is going to happen, what if they coudn't stop some madman with billions at his disposal? There is so much power in the toe that even if we are perfect should we consider the implications of the toe and what it might do to man? It could just as easily destroy us as take us to the highest hights.

[subversion]

Okay, you're making me work for this! I am not saying that we are objectively perfect, just that we may be perfect versions of ourselves (as human and I guess therefore not objectively perfect). My belief that we can't handle the TOE stems from the fact that we are not objectively perfect. You would handle the TOE perfectly for you, I would handle it perfectly for me, but we might not handle it the same way (or even believe that what the other did with the TOE was ethical). Each according to her abilities.....

work it work it! It's just work. Ok well I agree with what you say. I think that we all need to find a way to agree about how we'll react and then we'll be ready for the TOE. I don't think it's impossible at all, but everybody has to be willing to make some sort of an agreement.... *thinks for a moment*

[subversion]

Looks like I have several things i need to reply to.
First off I would like to say to Subversion that all people who make a stand on any subject have those who are for them and those who are against them. You say that many call you a fool, but how many are grateful for the effort you are giving to make the world a better place by trying to prepare them for the toe? If you choose to focus on all the positive things people say to you then I believe you will be happier and also more motivated to this cause. If you focus on the bad then the opposite would happen.

Thanks a lot Guttedpleasure. I think you're right that the negative people get more than their fair share of attention. I do not appreciate you all enough. I guess I need to follow my own advice and just not entertain evil.

There's just one little nagging problem though. This is an open forum, which means all the naysayers are here and present. This is a metaphor for the world. So I just can't get over the fact that these people who are calling me a fool really don't deserve for me to tell them what I believe I have discovered, yet there is no way to get rid of them. Therefore, we must convert them into positive people. It is the only option I see. We must make believers out of them. That means it is all of our responsibility to convince everyone it is in everyone's best interest if everyone is positive. We have to find a way to convince them. Thanks a lot for being so helpful all of you. I really am lucky to have all of you so thanks a lot. Do you agree that we should try to positively influence the rest? That way we will all be united and strong.